Are Babies Who Have Not Been Saved Comdemned To Hell? (doctrines, interpretation)

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

Sadly, what we do NOT need in the forum is more fundie viewpoints. Their views corrupt the Gospel of Christ beyond recognition and blaspheme God. God IS agape love and anything that is NOT consistent with or compatible with the Spirit of agape love is NOT from God or Jesus.

Well MusticPhD, God is whole lot more than love. If my views 'corrupt' the Gospel of Christ please educate me and explain exactly what the Gospel of Christ is according to what you believe.

Oh, no hokum platitudes only Scripture if you dare.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

Sadly, what we do NOT need in the forum is more fundie viewpoints. Their views corrupt the Gospel of Christ beyond recognition and blaspheme God. God IS agape love and anything that is NOT consistent with or compatible with the Spirit of agape love is NOT from God or Jesus.

Originally Posted by diakonos

Well MusticPhD, God is whole lot more than love. If my views 'corrupt' the Gospel of Christ please educate me and explain exactly what the Gospel of Christ is according to what you believe.
Oh, no hokum platitudes only Scripture if you dare.

Every single use of the word "love" in these verses is "agape love" including the one stating clearly that God IS agape love. Whatever other nonsense you believe from the "precepts and doctrines of men" is irrelevant. God IS Spirit. God IS agape love. And we are to love one another as Christ loved us, period.

John 4:24King James Version (KJV)
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

1 John 4:7 (King James Version)
7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Galatians 5:6King James Version (KJV)
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

1 John 3:11 (King James Version)
11For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

Colossians 3:12-14New International Version (NIV)
12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Matthew 22:37-40 King James Version (KJV)
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Hebrews 10:24 (King James Version)
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

John 17:3 (King James Version)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 4:11-12 (King James Version)
11Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1 John 4:16-21 (King James Version)
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

John 13:34 (King James Version)
34A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John 15:9-10 (King James Version)
9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

John 15:12 (King James Version)
12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

John 15:17 (King James Version)
17These things I command you, that ye love one another.

1 John 3:23 (King James Version)
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Romans 13:8-10King James Version (KJV)
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

[froglipz]

Originally Posted by whos'who

Are new born babies who are not saved and who have not excepted Jesus as their lord and savior, comdemned to hell?

They will be just fine!

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

Every single use of the word
"love" in these verses is "agape love" including the one stating clearly that God IS agape love. Whatever other nonsense you believe from the "precepts and doctrines of men" is irrelevant. God IS Spirit. God IS agape love. And we are to love one another as Christ loved us, period.

I'm sorry, I guess I should have been more clear. I wholeheartedly agree that God is a Spirit and they that worship must do so in spirit and truth. Also God is love - no problem here. Also I have absolutely argument with you concerning the Scriptures you posted in your second response.

However, you said in your first response to my previous post:

Sadly, what we do NOT need in the forum is more fundie viewpoints. Their views corrupt the Gospel of Christ beyond recognition and blaspheme God. God IS agape love and anything that is NOT consistent with or compatible with the Spirit of agape love is NOT from God or Jesus.

And now you've said:

Whatever other nonsense you believe from the "precepts and doctrines of men" is irrelevant.

So are you saying the the Gospel of Christ is love and love only? I do not want to put words in your mouth, but am looking for clarification. I appears that you are saying that if I believe anything except that God is love my

beliefs corrupt the Gospel of Christ beyond recognition and blaspheme God,

It also seems that your definition of the Gospel of Christ is different the the Bibles'.

1 Cor. 15:3b that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

This is the Gospel (Good News) of Christ that He died for our sins and rose from the dead to purchase our salvation. It is because of God's agape love that the Son came to redeem a lost world.

I am interested in learning how my views "corrupt the Gospel of Christ beyond recognition and blaspheme God" and "whatever other nonsense" I "believe from the 'precepts and doctrines of men' is irrelevant"

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by diakonos

I'm sorry, I guess I should have been more clear. I wholeheartedly agree that God is a Spirit and they that worship must do so in spirit and truth. Also God is love - no problem here. Also I have absolutely argument with you concerning the Scriptures you posted in your second response.
However, you said in your first response to my previous post:
And now you've said:
So are you saying that the Gospel of Christ is love and love only? I do not want to put words in your mouth, but am looking for clarification. I appears that you are saying that if I believe anything except that God is love my
It also seems that your definition of the Gospel of Christ is different than the Bibles'.
This is the Gospel (Good News) of Christ that He died for our sins and rose from the dead to purchase our salvation. It is because of God's agape love that the Son came to redeem a lost world.
I am interested in learning how my views "corrupt the Gospel of Christ beyond recognition and blaspheme God" and "whatever other nonsense" I "believe from the 'precepts and doctrines of men' is irrelevant"

God IS love. That does not mean God loves. It means God IS love. It demands that you know what the word IS means. It means that anything that is NOT agape love is NOT compatible or consistent with God and can never be FROM God or required by God, period. Anything you have been taught about the Bible and what is in it can NOT be from God or Jesus if it violates the Spirit of agape love.

Our ancestors' barbaric beliefs about God being a Wrathful God who required yearly blood sacrifices to appease Him are why they mistakenly interpreted Christ's endurance of our ancestors' sins (ignorant brutality) as a blood sacrifice to God. THAT blasphemes God who IS agape love NOT wrath. They could not rise above their ignorant savage and barbaric beliefs about God. That is why they rejected Jesus and His Gospel.

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

God IS love. That does not mean God loves. It means God IS love. It demands that you know what the word IS means. It means that anything that is NOT agape love is NOT compatible or consistent with God and can never be FROM God or required by God, period. Anything you have been taught about the Bible and what is in it can NOT be from God or Jesus if it violates the Spirit of agape love.

Our ancestors' barbaric beliefs about God being a Wrathful God who required yearly blood sacrifices to appease Him are why they mistakenly interpreted Christ's endurance of our ancestors' sins (ignorant brutality) as a blood sacrifice to God. THAT blasphemes God who IS agape love NOT wrath. They could not rise above their ignorant savage and barbaric beliefs about God. That is why they rejected Jesus and His Gospel.

Is: Third person singular present indicative of be.

Be: in the first person singular present indicative - am (ăm)
To exist in actuality; have life or reality: I think, therefore I am.

It is obvious you have a very very narrow view of who God is. We must recognize that any attempt to discuss God is limited by our inability as mortal and limited beings. As such we are incapable of fathoming the One who is immortal and unlimited. We must recognize that when we seek to understand God we do not have full knowledge. Only He has full knowledge. Our understanding is only through analogy, extrapolation and our understanding of His Word, the Bible which He has given to us.

You fail to understand the need for the yearly blood sacrifice. You stress that God is love while ignoring that love is but one aspect of who God is. God is a God of love. He is, and always was. At the same time, He is not all-loving, to the exclusion of everything else. He has other attributes too. He is holy, He is just, He is righteous, AND He is a God of wrath.

God's holiness demands that disobedience (sin) be dealt with. It is out of His love that the sacrificial system was set up for His chosen people Israel. The sacrifices provided cover for sin thus negating the need for punishment.

Holy:

“Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD Of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory.” (Isaiah 6:3)

“Who among the gods is like you, O Lord? Who is like you—majestic in holiness, awesome in glory, working wonders.” (Exodus 15:11)

“There is no one holy like the LORD, Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God. (1Sam 2:2)

Yet You are holy, O You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel. (Ps 22:3)

And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, “HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME.” (Rev 4:8)

“Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; (Rev 15:4a)

God's holy character demands that sin be punished. At the same time, he offers grace and mercy to those who are willing to repent and believe.

Just:

Ascribe greatness to our God! The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He. (Deut 32:3b,4)

now, will not God bring about justice for His elect... I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly (Luke 18:7a, 8a)

Opening his mouth, Peter said: “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, (Acts 10:34) [since He does not show partiality He is just]
For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, (2Thess 1:6)
Wrath:

“Behold the storm of the LORD! Wrath has gone forth, a whirling tempest; it will burst upon the head of the wicked.” (Jeremiah 30:23)

“The LORD is a jealous and avenging God; the LORD is avenging and wrathful; the Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies.” (Nahum 1:2)

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.” (Romans 1:18)

But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: (Rom 2:5,6)

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. (Rom 5:9)

Jesus Himself said: “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” (Matthew 10:28)

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

God IS love. That does not mean God loves. It means God IS love. It demands that you know what the word IS means. It means that anything that is NOT agape love is NOT compatible or consistent with God and can never be FROM God or required by God, period. Anything you have been taught about the Bible and what is in it can NOT be from God or Jesus if it violates the Spirit of agape love.
Our ancestors' barbaric beliefs about God being a Wrathful God who required yearly blood sacrifices to appease Him are why they mistakenly interpreted Christ's endurance of our ancestors' sins (ignorant brutality) as a blood sacrifice to God. THAT blasphemes God who IS agape love NOT wrath. They could not rise above their ignorant savage and barbaric beliefs about God. That is why they rejected Jesus and His Gospel.

Originally Posted by diakonos

Is: Third person singular present indicative of be.

Be: in the first person singular present indicative - am (ăm)
To exist in actuality; have life or reality: I think, therefore I am.

It is obvious you have a very very narrow view of who God is. We must recognize that any attempt to discuss God is limited by our inability as mortal and limited beings. As such we are incapable of fathoming the One who is immortal and unlimited. We must recognize that when we seek to understand God we do not have full knowledge. Only He has full knowledge. Our understanding is only through analogy, extrapolation and our understanding of His Word, the Bible which He has given to us.

Wrong. We have Jesus the Christ to understand God. His life and actions revealed God's TRUE NATURE and it did NOT contain wrath and vengeance. He endured our barbaric ancestors' brutality without smiting anyone and loved everyone including those who tortured and murdered Him. That is about as unambiguous a picture of the TRUE NATURE of God as there can be. There is NO WAY a God of that nature would EVER have required blood sacrifices of innocents for ANY REASON, ever!!!

It was our ignorant, barbaric and savage ancestors who misunderstood absolutely EVERYTHING about God. Even in their fable about Noah, Noah stupidly and ignorantly sacrificed the VERY animals he was told to SAVE from extinction!!! You don't get it more wrong than that!!! You are accepting and following the ancient ignorance of primitives who didn't have a clue who or what God was. I cannot believe such barbaric nonsense has survived into the 21st century and that there are people who actually believe it!!! I almost lose all hope for humanity when I encounter such nonsense. It is actually quite disheartening and a little bit creepy.

[look3467]

Who can understand the "love of God"?

Why would God tell us to "love our enemies".

I mean He wouldn't say that if He was not willing to do so also?

Can......Can humanity understand just what that means?

I don't think so.

How could we understand what loving our enemy is if our enemy would be killing us?

Only God Himself could comply with that order. Do we know why?

Babies do go to heaven in cases of early death just because God in Jesus did comply with that order.

Had he not......most certainly, none of us including babies wouldn't stand a chance at an after life.

Blessings, AJ

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

Wrong. We have Jesus the Christ to understand God. His life and actions revealed God's TRUE NATURE and it did NOT contain wrath and vengeance. He endured our barbaric ancestors' brutality without smiting anyone and loved everyone including those who tortured and murdered Him. That is about as unambiguous a picture of the TRUE NATURE of God as there can be. There is NO WAY a God of that nature would EVER have required blood sacrifices of innocents for ANY REASON, ever!!!

It was our ignorant, barbaric and savage ancestors who misunderstood absolutely EVERYTHING about God. Even in their fable about Noah, Noah stupidly and ignorantly sacrificed the VERY animals he was told to SAVE from extinction!!! You don't get it more wrong than that!!! You are accepting and following the ancient ignorance of primitives who didn't have a clue who or what God was. I cannot believe such barbaric nonsense has survived into the 21st century and that there are people who actually believe it!!! I almost lose all hope for humanity when I encounter such nonsense. It is actually quite disheartening and a little bit creepy.

Well I can see that it is useless to use the Scripture to try and communicate with you as you obviously do not believe it to be the Word of God as I do. So I will do as Jesus told his disciples to do: ""Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." (Matthew 7:6)

I suppose all will be revealed when the end comes.

Good day from you friendly fundi.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

Wrong. We have Jesus the Christ to understand God. His life and actions revealed God's TRUE NATURE and it did NOT contain wrath and vengeance. He endured our barbaric ancestors' brutality without smiting anyone and loved everyone including those who tortured and murdered Him. That is about as unambiguous a picture of the TRUE NATURE of God as there can be. There is NO WAY a God of that nature would EVER have required blood sacrifices of innocents for ANY REASON, ever!!!

It was our ignorant, barbaric and savage ancestors who misunderstood absolutely EVERYTHING about God. Even in their fable about Noah, Noah stupidly and ignorantly sacrificed the VERY animals he was told to SAVE from extinction!!! You don't get it more wrong than that!!! You are accepting and following the ancient ignorance of primitives who didn't have a clue who or what God was. I cannot believe such barbaric nonsense has survived into the 21st century and that there are people who actually believe it!!! I almost lose all hope for humanity when I encounter such nonsense. It is actually quite disheartening and a little bit creepy.

Originally Posted by diakonos

Well I can see that it is useless to use the Scripture to try and communicate with you as you obviously do not believe it to be the Word of God as I do. So I will do as Jesus told his disciples to do: ""Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." (Matthew 7:6)
I suppose all will be revealed when the end comes.
Good day from you friendly fundi.

The ONLY Word of God is Jesus the Christ, period. You are following the false Gospel created by the "precepts and doctrines of men" using the ancient ignorance of our primitive, savage and barbaric ancestors. You are denying the New Covenant and therefore denying Christ to follow the majority apostate anti-Christ church dogma we were warned about for these latter days. The only thing you are throwing is your corrupt Gospel and the only dogs and swine are the followers of it.