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Old 10-11-2009, 11:03 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,203,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
Isn`t it ironic that the same pastors that preach hellfire and brimstone and say it is only justice,clam up about God and his justice when they preside over a funeral. Then it is all about God`s love,mercy, and compassion. If it is true and just and they want everyone to believe it why don`t they say what they believe to be the truth at a funeral? Because they don`t want to sound unfeeling and uncompassionate? Even to them it is not compassionate but they hold God to a lesser standard? But on Sunday they scream it at the top of their lungs and talk about how loving God is.
Classic organized religion really ... You have the thesis and antithesis. God is love but will torture you for ever if you don't believe and stay in line. The synthesis of Course is a frightened and confused laity who are easy to manipulate and control. Classic religious bondage and spiritual terrorism. Notice how few believers in ET or annihilation have graced this thread with their responses? Sometimes silence speaks a thousand words.
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Old 10-11-2009, 11:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgiafrog View Post
Here is an interesting take on the idea of a Christian hell from one of Christianity's best apologists. I strongly recommend the full read, but here is a summary. Probably better suited to the nature of a benevolent God?

The Great Divorce - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I have read that book among all his other works, and it is evident his struggle with the whole Idea. I love C.S. Lewis, he was an amazing man. And that is a great book by the way. I think he was a closet Christian Universalist.
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Old 10-12-2009, 03:38 AM
 
Location: East Coast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
No, the vindictive and hateful and cruel and greedy who count themselves among believers would not be happy to find out that is true one bit. To them that is bad news.
Exactly it would amazingly be bad news to them.........How can those who never went church,never read the bible,prayed,witnessed,tithed,believed all the right traditions and doctrines ever deserve to make it.I'm personally very thankful that i have not had to cope with a lot of death within my family and friends , so i really have not had to deal with it while being a believer in ET .
A family member passing away is bad enough , but to have to cope with it believing in ET the way fundamentalists do must be torture to the mind , your own very flesh and blood frying, and the only way to deal with is to tell yourself they had their chance , they should have believed in this life , it's their own fault they are frying they should have listened to me when i shared the gospel with them ??????, yea right if only you had told them the good news .
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Old 10-12-2009, 07:16 AM
 
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But after reading all the posts coming from the UR camp, all I see is:

The same arguments, over and over.

What does this have to do with God? Because the doctrine of UR appeases the carnal mind does not make the doctrine truth. You all should know this. I asked for verses that you all claim to believe, stating at a man has mutiple chances AFTER the death of the body to come into full repentance, and there are none. Every knee bowing is not even a qualifyer, because I showed the last verse in Isaiah after ALL mankind bowed, looking upon the dead corpses of those who transgressed God. We can only come up with conjectures on what that verse even means.


People worry about their dead loved ones, and the outcome of their fate? Why? Jesus said let the dead bury the dead. We are commanded to preach to those we love, and if you all claim to love everyone, then you should be preaching to everyone, starting with your family. Then this issue is a non issue. Faith comes by hearing the Word. Even if they think you to be crazy and persecute you, does not change the fact that you must still preach to them,, if you love them.

I personally do not believe in ET. But because I do not believe in it, doesn't mean that it is not so. I personally do not believe in UR. But because I don't believe in it, does not mean that it, also, is not so. Why? Because I TRULY don't know. That is God's department. From what I read out of the Word, I personally believe in annhialiation. At the same time, it does not make this so.

Really, what we should be doing is proclaiming Christ. That is it. Leave the dead to God. Whether they be children, or our favorite loving grandmother. For they are either ending up with Him, or they are not. What we currently believe pertaining to them, does not make it so. Wish we may, wish we might.

Whether we know things to be undisputed facts or not is the question. I think it egotistical on our parts to claim something pertaining to the after life as something as a certainty, when in reality, we just don't know. We have not been there. At least I haven't. But we are being led. We get excited when new revelations are given to us, and we desire to share them with everyone. I can tell just by reading this forum. As well we should be. But with that, we should be cautious. Why?

To each is given Truth in measurements that we can handle. The Truth today may not be the same level of Truth tomorrow. Remember the "crumbs"? As we grow as Christians, so must our knowledge of Him grow as well. Are we there yet? I tend to think no man is there, otherwise they would have FULL knowledge, and with that, the Power of the Almighty working through them.
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Old 10-12-2009, 08:01 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,686,143 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
I asked for verses that you all claim to believe, stating at a man has mutiple chances AFTER the death of the body to come into full repentance, and there are none. Every knee bowing is not even a qualifyer, because I showed the last verse in Isaiah after ALL mankind bowed, looking upon the dead corpses of those who transgressed God. We can only come up with conjectures on what that verse even means.

Well, this is a simple matter here Hot, you present your own standards that someone must answer to and no one actually is obligated to prove anything to your standards.

It seems there are a few avenues you and others take to refute the passages in philippians and corinthians, none of which actually refutes them.

1. You qualify them through un scriptural explainations by saying "oh sure all will bow, but it will either be in reverence or forced

2. You completely leave out the most specific detail of all. "Confessing that Jesus is Lord, just have you have done here.


You can reference bowing to legion in which Legion acknowledged who Jesus was and you equate that to bowing.

Ok fine I can see that prallel there, but leagion never bowed AND CONFESSED "Jesus as Lord" In corinthians it says no one says "Jesus as Lord" except by the Holy spirit.


So first of all, UR's have no obligation to point out a verse about "Chances". Since you don't think the word strawman applies to your argument I will spell it out for you.


If your beliefs talk about "Chances" to be saved that is YOUR beliefs, UR is NOT about depicting salvation as "Chances" or even "Chance" or anything of the kind. The verses tell the story, the bible ADDS up to that end. ALL will bow and Confess Jesus as Lord.

And there is another thing that is left out. All this is done "to the Glory of God the Father"

There is just no scriptural validity in the idea that all bow and confess Jesus as Lord and this is done by the holy spirit and for some that confession is then the precursor for their eternal damnation or anihillation "To the Glory of God the Father"
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Old 10-12-2009, 08:08 AM
 
Location: Germany
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you shouldn't mention annihilation in one sentence with everlasting torment, while men deserve everlasting death and I would accept that penalty, even for my beloved ones; everlasting torment is satanic and no finite being can deserve it.

However I see both unscriptural as all men will be saved (1Tim 4:10)
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Old 10-12-2009, 08:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
you shouldn't mention annihilation in one sentence with everlasting torment, while men deserve everlasting death and I would accept that penalty, even for my beloved ones; everlasting torment is satanic and no finite being can deserve it.

However I see both unscriptural as all men will be saved (1Tim 4:10)

I understand what your saying Sven, but unscriptural is unscriptural so I include both because it is not about the emotional reaction we can have over one being worse than the other.

I don't accept anihillation just because someone has worked out the doctrine of Jesus defeat to tickle their own ears.
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Old 10-12-2009, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,709,256 times
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I wanted something to add:

@ HotinAZ

when you believe in annihilation you should rather oppose the teaching of everlasting torment than universalism, the doctrine of hell brings countless men away from God, unlike universalism.

Please consider this.
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Old 10-12-2009, 08:29 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
The difference it makes is the effect that the way you believe has on you, knowing they died without being Christian. Did you stop loving them after they died? Do you miss them, does the thought of them being tortured for ever bother you? Do you ever even think about it or do you just push it out of your mind? If they were alive and being tortured would it bother you any more?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post

The question is only to find out how many here on CD who believe in ET or in annihilation actually are burdened by their love for someone who may be suffering in hell even as we speak. And the question is also to try and understand how people who believe in ET and have lost loved ones who were not believers really feel about love to begin with.

I know for a fact i couldn't handle the personal torment and fear i had when i believed in ET over not only loved ones who have passed who did not believe but over all the countless souls who have.

When ever i read ... "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18) ... It didn't make any sense to me at all when i believed in ET. I thought there must have been something wrong with me.

And no, the way i feel about it is not why i believe the way i do now. I believed in ET for many many years while suffering from the thought of so many people being ceaselessly tortured. Though it did eventually cause my conscience to move me in the direction of seeking God for answers and salvation from such a terrible state of mind into which i had fallen. He then began to reveal to me slowly the answers i had been seeking and showing me the truth of his love for all people, and how it far surpasses mine own. He began showing me in the scriptures what i was unable to see for so many years due to the indoctrination i had received throughout my life. He opened my eyes and all the sudden the bible actually started making sense and the contradictions started being reconciled and i began to for the first time in so many years to truly feel the peace that surpasses all understanding and the joy and love of life for all people and for God most of all.

My question is to ascertain how you can live with yourself, knowing that you believe the way you do even though it goes against the love that you have for others. It seems to me you would more readily cast off your love for those who have passed and everyone else in the world who does not believe the way you do than to even consider an alternative to your own traditional interpretations of scripture. How you defend the doctrine of ET and or annihilation in spite of all the evidences showing that the scriptures can be interpreted in the light of Universal Reconciliation and in fact was originally interpreted that way by the vast majority of early Christian before the sixth century? I am simply trying to understand what manner of creature ET'ers and those that believe in Annihilation are? Because you are so foreign to me ... I was never able to be happy or have any peace of mind once i started asking questions and loosing people i loved who did not believe to death. I became quite caught up in anything that could take my mind of it ... Drugs, alcohol, sex, etc. ... I began sinning far more than i do now that i have come to understand UR, just trying to escape from my own torments.
WOW! There it is folks, universalism in a nutshell "The gospel of me, I, us, they, we, them, you, my, mine"

To answer your question, this is exactly why you don't understand us because we put God's glory first, we talk, teach, preach about God's glory and not man.
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Old 10-12-2009, 08:34 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,224 posts, read 19,996,777 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post

WOW! There it is folks, universalism in a nutshell "The gospel of me, I, us, they, we, them, us, my"

To answer your question, this is exactly why you don't understand us because we put God's glory first, we talk about God's glory more and less about man.
Baloney you talk about sIn,judgement,and ET. , which really is talking about what is in your own heart. So it's you who is talking about man.
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