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Old 10-15-2009, 11:56 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,198,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
"Be perfect as your father is perfect"....

Remember when we are told by Jesus to become this?
Was he kidding?
Was this said to be some sort of joke, a type of unreachable goal?

No!
It's something we have to become...and do become in Him.

However there are some ways to understand the term "Perfect" that make it something out of reach.

Here is a test....look around your house, or your yard, or your life, and name the things you think are perfect????

There should be a nice list of things that you come up with.
If you cant name even one thing, then you are mixed up as to the bible's meaning of "Perfect" of you live in a damp cave
=============================================

What is the best meaning in the whole world for the term "Perfect"?


(I feel a story coming on....)
This example will give you the perfect meaning to the word "Perfect"

You and your wife have just had your first baby.
You bring the child home from the hospital and are filled with joy and pride.
You know that your mom is about to come to town that day to see your new baby for the first time.
So you go to all the best baby stores and you bring home lots of new outfits to try on your baby so that when Grandma sees her new grandchild for the first time the baby will shine.

The hour of grandmas visit is at hand.
the baby is washed, and dressed in the best baby clothes.
The baby is then wrapped in blanket after blanket and placed in the brand new baby bed .
You make one last adjustment to the blankets, and the door bell rings...

Its Grandma!

You answer the door, greet your mom, and watch her as she walks over to see the child .
She reaches down, moves aside the blankets and picks up the new born...
Then you watch as grandma strips away the coverings to count all the fingers and toes.

Satisfied, and with tears in her eyes, she pronounces the child "Perfect!"




That is the perfection that Jesus asks of us....

To be lacking in nothing.....
As i understand it Christ is not commanding people to be blameless. Or at least not in the sense that many believe. He was not saying be perfect in work. If that was the case, and if that is what is required to be the children of our father in heaven, he would not have gone through the suffering at the hands of his enemies and the death on the cross to begin with. As if it were even possible to perfect in works to begin with having the corruptible flesh which we have and the sin which is in the very members of that flesh. The word perfect their in the Greek means complete. If you notice the context in which he says to be perfect/complete, he is referring to love. That was why i posted what i to original topic. "Love they neighbor", and even "love thy enemy".

Matthew 5:38-48

8Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


Complete love means love for all humanity, and even love of the fallen angels themselves as they are the proverbial "enemy". If you think that your neighbor and enemies are going to be brutalized or even treated with contempt by God, i don't think you understand what love really is. The contempt that people will experience before him in the midst of his fiery judgments will come from within themselves, they will hold themselves in contempt when they are in the presence of the lamb. If God loves his enemies completely, as we are told we should, then his desire is not to destroy them in the sense that we understand destruction as spiteful, vindictive, petty humans. His desire is to destroy the part of them that resists him, in order to reconcile them to himself ultimately. This is where i believe most Christians fail miserably to understand what Christ was really all about, and by association obviously the father is the same, seeing as Christ is the express image of the father. We can talk all day about how we live without sin, or how we say our prayers and dutifully attend worship services and how we read our bibles etc. That is all fine and good, but its is as sounding brass and a tinkling cymbal without love.


The point of the original topic was to explore the love that those who believe in ET or annihilation have, and the test of that love in this topic is how they feel about people they knew who have died that were not believers whom they are supposed to love in light of the fact they believe in ET or annihilation. Does you love cease when a person dies? Did Christ love cease when Lazarus died? Did Christ love Lazarus any more than his enemies? Certainly Lazarus was his friend, and the bond of their relationship was greater, but in the altruistic sense that Christ spoke of the complete love of the father, do you think he stops loving people after they have died? Or at any time at all? Do you think Gods Love is absent his judgments? If so, seeing that God is love, isn't that tantamount to saying that God himself is absent his judgments?


Anyway, that was the purpose for the OT which i can see few cared to actually respond too. I cant understand the lip service which love gets from some people, but the actually manifestation of that love in their lives doesn't seem to line up with what they teach, or believe, or say for that matter. It seems to me that love takes on this carnal quality in the minds of those who defend everlasting punishment either in the sense of ET or annihilation. As if love were secondary to justice, when i believe true justice to be tempered by love. Anyway, that is my understanding.


Amen and Selah.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:08 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,198,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
I know wihout a doubt that I am a born-again, spirit filled, child of the Living God through Christ. I know that I not only talk the talk, but I walk the walk required of me according to His Word...and I know that I know that I know that I will stand with confidence before Jesus my King, and He will know me because He knows I live my life to please Him. I haven't become all that He wants me to be, and I will not until He comes again and completes the work that He has begun in me...but I hear His voice...and know His voice...and I submitt to Him and His will above my own...daily He teaches me...daily He leads me...daily He convicts my heart, but I hear Him, and I love His corrections...I love His attention to me...even when it is because I've said or done something wrong that displeased Him...He is perfecting me...and the purification process, though it is painful to my flesh...is precious to me. I do not fear death...and I do not fear hell...I also do not fear being separated from Him...ever...because I live to please Him. I stay in His Word, constantly...and I do work out my salvation with fear and trembling...and I am a living sacrifice unto Him.

So, yes...I can say with confidence, that I will be accepted into His Kingdom...according to His holy Word...and He is not a God who can lie...and His Word will not return void. I stand upon His every promise to me. I live with peace and joy, in hope...patiently enduring. Amen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
That may be so, I dont know you nor can I but guess as to he state of your walk.

All I know is that I do not suffer a lack of something that would keep me from entering the Kingdom.

(and you posted about what I had written before I was done fixing a lot of the spelling errors, so my story was not in it's final form yet,,,go read it again)



This doesn't appear to me to be what God desires of us. Look at what you say about your confidence compared to what Christ said about the pharisee and the publican.


Luk 18:9-14
9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14I tell you, this man(the publican) went down to his house justified rather than the other(the Pharisee): for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.




While you say this ...


Quote:
Verna posted...
I know that I not only talk the talk, but I walk the walk required of me according to His Word
and

Quote:
Verna posted
...and I know that I know that I know that I will stand with confidence before Jesus my King ...
and

Quote:
Alan posted ...
All I know is that I do not suffer a lack of something that would keep me from entering the Kingdom.
Did the publican say, "father please forgive me i have stopped sinning now ... ?" No he said, "be merciful to me a sinner".




And the whole time you speak about how others are not as confident as you are. Or how others will be judged, but not you. I just cant understand how you can say and believe the things you do in spite of what Jesus was actually telling us. It doesn't mesh with the ministry of Christ in my opinion.

Again, i believe the core ingredient to what Christ desires of us is missing in this fundamentalist perspective. That core ingredient is love for all people. Not to mention a true knowledge of our actual unworthiness despite what we might think of ourselves.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-15-2009 at 12:45 PM..
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Old 10-15-2009, 03:27 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,518,646 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by katjonjj
Quote:
Nazi's were socialist christian.
Nazis call themselves National Socialists, which is something very different as calling yourself a socialist.
The Nazis real ideology lays in nationalism (being a purebred German) and not socialism (workers of the world unite).
But Hitler believed himself to be working for Germany's greater good so he also had to include 'socialism' as part of his ideology.
Hitler's propaganda had always made an appeal to Germany's greatest common denominator (which included both Christianity and socialism).
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Old 10-15-2009, 03:32 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,167 posts, read 19,971,676 times
Reputation: 2107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
I know wihout a doubt that I am a born-again, spirit filled, child of the Living God through Christ. I know that I not only talk the talk, but I walk the walk required of me according to His Word...and I know that I know that I know that I will stand with confidence before Jesus my King, and He will know me because He knows I live my life to please Him. I haven't become all that He wants me to be, and I will not until He comes again and completes the work that He has begun in me...but I hear His voice...and know His voice...and I submitt to Him and His will above my own...daily He teaches me...daily He leads me...daily He convicts my heart, but I hear Him, and I love His corrections...I love His attention to me...even when it is because I've said or done something wrong that displeased Him...He is perfecting me...and the purification process, though it is painful to my flesh...is precious to me. I do not fear death...and I do not fear hell...I also do not fear being separated from Him...ever...because I live to please Him. I stay in His Word, constantly...and I do work out my salvation with fear and trembling...and I am a living sacrifice unto Him.

So, yes...I can say with confidence, that I will be accepted into His Kingdom...according to His holy Word...and He is not a God who can lie...and His Word will not return void. I stand upon His every promise to me. I live with peace and joy, in hope...patiently enduring. Amen.
Verna there is something very familiar theme about your post and the parable below, it involves one letter words.

Luk 18:9-14
9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14I tell you, this man(the publican) went down to his house justified rather than the other(the Pharisee): for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
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Old 10-15-2009, 03:33 PM
 
Location: USA
1,895 posts, read 4,040,692 times
Reputation: 1988
Quote:
Did the publican say, "father please forgive me i have stopped sinning now ... ?" No he said, "be merciful to me a sinner".
And the whole time you speak about how others are not as confident as you are. Or how others will be judged, but not you. I just cant understand how you can say and believe the things you do in spite of what Jesus was actually telling us. It doesn't mesh with the ministry of Christ in my opinion.

Again, i believe the core ingredient to what Christ desires of us is missing in this fundamentalist perspective. That core ingredient is love for all people. Not to mention a true knowledge of our actual unworthiness despite what we might think of ourselves.
Exactly, and she still has not answered my question about how she "displeased" the Lord, yet she claims she "never" sins....?

In the first place, anyone bragging about how they "never sin," is sinning right there, the sin of pride.

If a person lives a good life, where does the credit belong? Listen and see, where the credit is attributed to. That will tell you much about the speaker.

If one lives a good life, and is kind to his or her fellow man, etc., they still need humility. A "true" Christian (that you hear so much about from some here), will have some humility.

They won't be ranting about "I'm praying for you," blah blah..........that's religion, that's calling attention to oneself. If you pray, pray in secret. Don't bray about it, like a honking donkey in a field.
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Old 10-15-2009, 04:03 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,487,341 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
. Look at what you say about your confidence
The reason for the Bible, is that we may have this same confidence as I have!

Google this...
"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."

You may KNOW that you have eternal life...

Not guess
Not wish on a star for
Not be wishy-washy about

But to know,
to be 100% sure of.
To have is a settled point.

So to review as to the question of Alan's salvation in the Kingdom, the matter is Case Closed!
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Old 10-15-2009, 04:11 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,167 posts, read 19,971,676 times
Reputation: 2107
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Google this...
"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."

You may KNOW that you have eternal life...

Not guess
Not wish on a star for
Not be wishy-washy about

But to know,
to be 100% sure of.
To have is a settled point.

So to review as to the question of Alan's salvation in the Kingdom, the matter is Case Closed!
Alan i think the emphasis is what our confidence is in . It certainly is not in our own strength,might,or worse still our own boasting of our own ability not to sin.

I have the utmost confidence for example in Him to complete that which He has started in me.
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Old 10-15-2009, 04:14 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,487,341 times
Reputation: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Alan i think ...
I think that all that I have said is true, and supported by the text.

I lack nothing that would keep me from the Kingdom...

and unless you are sure,you fall short of what God would have you understand and know...

Jesus wants you to be sure about the whole Salvation story.
He wants you to be sure of what he did, and what it means for you now...

Thi8s is why he told Tomas, "Be not unbelieving ..."
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Old 10-15-2009, 04:37 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,167 posts, read 19,971,676 times
Reputation: 2107
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
I think that all that I have said is true, and supported by the text.

I lack nothing that would keep me from the Kingdom...

and unless you are sure,you fall short of what God would have you understand and know...

Jesus wants you to be sure about the whole Salvation story.
He wants you to be sure of what he did, and what it means for you now...

Thi8s is why he told Tomas, "Be not unbelieving ..."
Not disputing this Alan , our surety is in Him and His ability not ours .
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:54 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,386,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Not disputing this Alan , our surety is in Him and His ability not ours .
Thank God for that!!!!
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