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Old 10-12-2009, 11:32 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,454,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Well, that contradicts the whole calvinist slant any way you look at it.

Thank you again.
What part of what I said is not calvinism?????

I am not a calvinist. I lean toward calvinism in my study of scripture but I cannot ignore the paradox of aminianism in the bible.

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 10-12-2009 at 11:43 AM..
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Old 10-12-2009, 11:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
There we have it the good news of Jesus Christ according to Fundamental Christianity.
That's not the gospel. That's theology
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Old 10-12-2009, 11:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Well, this is a simple matter here Hot, you present your own standards that someone must answer to and no one actually is obligated to prove anything to your standards.
Actually, that is not true. I have studied all 4 points of the doctrines of the after-life.

Quote:
It seems there are a few avenues you and others take to refute the passages in philippians and corinthians, none of which actually refutes them.
The OT refutes them. Scripture must line up with scripture, whether it is the spoken word, or a letter to a church.

Quote:
1. You qualify them through un scriptural explainations by saying "oh sure all will bow, but it will either be in reverence or forced
I qualify? No, rather the Word does. Even the demons bow in reverence to Jesus. That is how much Glory the Son has. But this does not make them saved by any means.

But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

Quote:
2. You completely leave out the most specific detail of all. "Confessing that Jesus is Lord, just have you have done here.
This is how people are born anew into the Kingdom. Submission to the King. This is done completely, not just in words.


Quote:
You can reference bowing to legion in which Legion acknowledged who Jesus was and you equate that to bowing.
I can, because that is what it says. That word worshipped is:

1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
1) to the Jewish high priests
2) to God
3) to Christ
4) to heavenly beings
5) to demons

Quote:
Ok fine I can see that prallel there, but leagion never bowed AND CONFESSED "Jesus as Lord" In corinthians it says no one says "Jesus as Lord" except by the Holy spirit.
Exactly. You are making my point for me. Though many or even ALL will bow, does not make them automatically saved. Ask Legion.


Quote:
So first of all, UR's have no obligation to point out a verse about "Chances". Since you don't think the word strawman applies to your argument I will spell it out for you.
It is what your WHOLE doctrine is based on. If there is not another chance, your doctrine falls completely apart.

Quote:
If your beliefs talk about "Chances" to be saved that is YOUR beliefs, UR is NOT about depicting salvation as "Chances" or even "Chance" or anything of the kind.
I disagree. How else does one "confess" Jesus as Lord, if they are dead?

Quote:
The verses tell the story, the bible ADDS up to that end. ALL will bow and Confess Jesus as Lord.
Umm, ok. All left standing is my stance. If I make a pizza, and then eat 2 slices? ALL that is left, is ALL of it.

Quote:
And there is another thing that is left out. All this is done "to the Glory of God the Father"
Not disputing that. But sinners without the redemptive power of the Blood of Jesus will never see the Glory, for they cannot even come into His presence.

Quote:
There is just no scriptural validity in the idea that all bow and confess Jesus as Lord and this is done by the holy spirit and for some that confession is then the precursor for their eternal damnation or anihillation "To the Glory of God the Father"
Sure there is, but you choose not to see it. But hey, that is ok, because that is your belief. I respect it, but do not have to agree with it. It just means we really don't know, and will not know, until that day when we give accounting for our lives.
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Old 10-12-2009, 11:50 AM
 
5,738 posts, read 4,585,628 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
If it gives Him the glory to send everyone to hell then that is His glory as well.

Then "glory" has lost ALL meaning.

That's like saying...

A mother loved her kids so much she set them on fire, and ripped all their hair out of their heads, then while they were still alive, she buried them alive and then she laughed and laughed. That mother sure LOVED her kids... Woo hoo!!! (what exactly does "love" mean in this case???!!)


The more people try to justify their erroneous beliefs, the more ridiculous the stuff that comes out of their mouths.

"If it gives God glory... he'll send everyone to be tortured forever without the hope of escape. ever." Do you even HEAR what you are saying?

If you think that would give God glory... you don't know what glory is and you surely don't know a whole lot about the charcter of God. (who by the way God tells us he IS love. IS.)

sheesh man.
WAKE UP!!
Stop being ridiculous.
There is no excuse for this nonsense.
And by "nonsense" I'm talking about taking a word and then taking away it's meaning and trying to prove some point.
"glory" is the word.

Unless you REALLY do believe that the god your worship would be glorified by the creatures that he created being eternally tortured. If that is the case, if that is what you REALLY believe could be a possibility.... then you really need to take another look at this god that you worship. Because it sounds more like Satan and everything ANTI-Christ as I can think of.

ET is ANTI-Christ.
WAKE UP.

I can't think of anything MORE "ANTI-" (against, opposing) Christ than this disgusting horrible doctrine of ET.
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Old 10-12-2009, 11:52 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,209 posts, read 19,991,820 times
Reputation: 2107
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
Then "glory" has lost ALL meaning.

That's like saying...

A mother loved her kids so much she set them on fire, and ripped all their hair out of their heads, then while they were still alive, she buried them alive and then she laughed and laughed. That mother sure LOVED her kids... Woo hoo!!! (what exactly does "love" mean in this case???!!)


The more people try to justify their erroneous beliefs, the more ridiculous the stuff that comes out of their mouths.

"If it gives God glory... he'll send everyone to be tortured forever without the hope of escape. ever." Do you even HEAR what you are saying?

If you think that would give God glory... you don't know what glory is and you surely don't know a whole lot about the charcter of God. (who by the way God tells us he IS love. IS.)

sheesh man.
WAKE UP!!
Stop being ridiculous.
There is no excuse for this nonsense.
But Sparrow you must understand Gods ways are not our ways .The God who says love our enemies will torture His
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Old 10-12-2009, 11:55 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,374,021 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
I wanted something to add:

@ HotinAZ

when you believe in annihilation you should rather oppose the teaching of everlasting torment than universalism, the doctrine of hell brings countless men away from God, unlike universalism.

Please consider this.
Why? The only reason I oppose UR as much as I do, is because of the cult like status the followers all share. ETer's are just taught by their pastors that this is truth. The pastors will be the ones giving accounting for their teachings if they are wrong. UR's seem to think that they have an inside revealing that truly resembles a classic cult like society. Really, look at the posts from the UR camp. Most regular topics discussed, ALWAYS lead somehow into their belief of UR. Even simple discussions. It truly is like the kool-aid drinkers.

If the doctrine of hell brings people away from God, then they were not of God to start with. Hell is mentioned in the bible countless times. So, they are preaching what they know. The UR camp is the extreme opposite of ET. Instead of burning in hell forever, they are just accepted and saved. Ask most people logically who do not believe in God, what is the most likely doctrine, AFTER they know about the extreme Holiness of God. A sinner standing without an advocate, and a sinner with one. Who is going to be saved? I look at it like 2 men swimming in the ocean, and one brought a life jacket. Who will most LIKELY make it?
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Old 10-12-2009, 11:56 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,209 posts, read 19,991,820 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
That's not the gospel. That's theology
According to fundamental christianity
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Old 10-12-2009, 11:58 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,685,493 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
I disagree. How else does one "confess" Jesus as Lord, if they are dead?

How is one not saved if they confess Jesus as Lord?


Quote:
Exactly. You are making my point for me. Though many or even ALL will bow, does not make them automatically saved. Ask Legion.
You leave out confession that "Jesus is Lord" once again


Quote:
Actually, that is not true. I have studied all 4 points of the doctrines of the after-life.

Yes it is true, my beliefs do not need the word "Chances" to be explained, your applying your beliefs in order to try to refute another context and it fails.

There is no "chances" in Christian Universalism, it is about the ABSOLUTE assurance that all are saved through Jesus Christ.
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:01 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,454,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
According to fundamental christianity
Heh! I don't care as long we establish that I wasn't talking about the gospel.
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:03 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,685,493 times
Reputation: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
What part of what I said is not calvinism?????

I am not a calvinist. I lean toward calvinism in my study of scripture but I cannot ignore the paradox of aminianism in the bible.

But you ignore the paradox of it not being about us. You seem to say it is about Gods glory, but Gods glory then allows a human to be in an eternal state that displeases him and that's to his glory.

But then on occasion you will say it is for our good, an eternal state of misery is for our good but that eternal state of misery displeases God.
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