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Old 10-12-2009, 12:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
But you ignore the paradox of it not being about us. You seem to say it is about Gods glory, but Gods glory then allows a human to be in an eternal state that displeases him and that's to his glory.

But then on occasion you will say it is for our good, an eternal state of misery is for our good but that eternal state of misery displeases God.
It does not please God to punish the wicked doesn't mean He won't punish the wicked. Are fathers pleased when they punish their sons? yet God was please to bruise His Son on the cross.

No I don't because I do say, we have a choice-that somehow our fate is decided by the individual as well. The bible is clear about that but then I end it right there. I DO NOT SPECULATE as you are doing. We are not given anymore so i am not gonna fill in the blank unless I see it in scripture. I trust God's word and only God's word. I don't care who starts drinking or gets suicidal because that is such a weak way of basing it off of since just as many don't go through this.

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 10-12-2009 at 12:19 PM..
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,706,819 times
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Why? The only reason I oppose UR as much as I do, is because of the cult like status the followers all share. ETer's are just taught by their pastors that this is truth. The pastors will be the ones giving accounting for their teachings if they are wrong. UR's seem to think that they have an inside revealing that truly resembles a classic cult like society. Really, look at the posts from the UR camp. Most regular topics discussed, ALWAYS lead somehow into their belief of UR. Even simple discussions. It truly is like the kool-aid drinkers.

If the doctrine of hell brings people away from God, then they were not of God to start with. Hell is mentioned in the bible countless times. So, they are preaching what they know. The UR camp is the extreme opposite of ET. Instead of burning in hell forever, they are just accepted and saved. Ask most people logically who do not believe in God, what is the most likely doctrine, AFTER they know about the extreme Holiness of God. A sinner standing without an advocate, and a sinner with one. Who is going to be saved? I look at it like 2 men swimming in the ocean, and one brought a life jacket. Who will most LIKELY make it?
let me say some things:

I don't like the way universalism is teached here, but on the other hand, every Christian should oppose the damnable and vicious doctrine of everlasting torment if given the chance. Sadly many people do not even try to listen to arguments.

I visited several Christian communities who believe in universalism, it's no great topic there at all, only a minor topic occassionally mentioned but the believers are convinced of it. You would hardly realize a difference to other Christians. Universalism is clearly taught in the NT in my opinion, just open your eyes and you'll see it if you have been not blinded by tradition, at least I see it plainly taught.

Hell, as a place of everlasting torment in the bible is not even mentioned once, as you believe in annihilation than at least you must agree with me here; J.N. Darby was a strong supporter of the doctrine of everlasting torment, yet his translation contains the word "hell" only 12 times in the NT, that is not countless. His OT contains the word hell not even once.

Few universalists teach that a man like Hitler e.g. will enter heaven instantly after death, indeed universalists of earlier generations believed in a literal hellfire for thousands of years, though I don't share this view, annihilationism sounds more appealing to face no judgment at all as universalism; anybody should understand that if all are saved, all need to pay for there sin and are not just whipped out, at least here punishment serves a rational purpose unlike to raise the dead only to finally execute them or torture them forevermore, the later something I could hardly imagine even the devil would do, if given the chance.

Quote:
Ask most people logically who do not believe in God, what is the most likely doctrine
before I believed in the bible I considered annihilation the most rational doctrine but I was soon convinced the bible teaches universalism when I was no believer yet; before that I almost became Muslim and had almost accepted the idea that some people suffer everlasting torment, but only the worst renegades I could imagine and that even they would somehow be annihilated, if not physically then by loosing their mind in the fire...

but honestly, most agnostics tend to a believe somehow in universalism, I think their souls have not been darkened yet by the doctrines of demons; atheists seem not to believe in any afterlife at all.
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:24 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,148 posts, read 19,964,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
It does not please God to punish the wicked doesn't mean He won't punish the wicked. Are fathers pleased when they punish their sons? yet God was please to bruise His Son on the cross.

No I don't because I do say, we have a choice-that somehow our fate is decided by the individual as well. The bible is clear about that but then I end it right there. I DO NOT SPECULATE as you are doing. We are not given anymore so i am not gonna fill in the blank unless I see it in scripture. I trust God's word and only God's word. I don't care who starts drinking or gets suicidal because that is such a weak way of basing it off of since just as many don't go through this.
From your own bolded sentence you admit punishment is not eternal torment, do you realize this Fundy ?

So when a Father punishes(chastises) is son are you saying He is sending him to eternal torment ?.

What you believe is full of contradiction.
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:25 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,681,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
No I don't because I do say, we have a choice-that somehow our fate is decided by the individual as well. The bible is clear about that but then I end it right there. I DO NOT SPECULATE as you are doing. We are not given anymore so i am not gonna fill in the blank unless I see it in scripture.

No speculation, there is a distinct message in scripture that believers can be told to depart from Jesus.

Now the context is then given that when this happens that means those told to depart are either damned forever or anihillated.

So then now you provide another contradiction to over come.

You state that it is not about us, then you say it is about us.

So, it really fails to adequatly explain how it is absolutely not about us.

So your work around to keep yourself safe from the logical end of your own doctrine contradicts itself.
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:45 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,681,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
It does not please God to punish the wicked doesn't mean He won't punish the wicked. Are fathers pleased when they punish their sons? yet God was please to bruise His Son on the cross.
You are presenting a separate issue. Was Jesus dead forever? Did Jesus suffer forever?

You are pitting an example of a proven temporary measure to support one of an eternal nature.
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
No speculation, there is a distinct message in scripture that believers can be told to depart from Jesus.

Now the context is then given that when this happens that means those told to depart are either damned forever or anihillated.

So then now you provide another contradiction to over come.

You state that it is not about us, then you say it is about us.

So, it really fails to adequatly explain how it is absolutely not about us.

So your work around to keep yourself safe from the logical end of your own doctrine contradicts itself.
The bible is clear that God saves us because we are dead in our sin, impossible to choose Him, nor would we want to choose Him yet the bible says, we have a choice. How does that work? I have not a clue nor do I speculate to speculate is to play God or border in dangerous territory and I don't believe we should choose one side or the other because there is an obvious paradox here.

This is pretty simple. First and foremost God gets the glory and us being saved is a BI-PRODUCT of God getting the glory but not us being saved is a determining factor of God getting the glory

paradox

a statement or proposition that seems self-contradictory or absurd but in reality expresses a possible truth.

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 10-12-2009 at 01:05 PM..
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:20 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,681,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
The bible is clear that God saves us because we are dead in our sin, impossible to choose Him, nor would we want to choose Him yet the bible says, we have a choice.
How does that work?
How does it work? Easy.

We love him because he first loved us. This without the constraint of time that is unscripturtally asserted produces the choice to the success of Jesus mission. To save the world.


Quote:

I have not a clue nor do I speculate to speculate is to play God or border in dangerous territory and I don't believe we should choose one side or the other because there is an obvious paradox here.
There actually is no paradox, but your doctrine presents one no matter how you try to work around it.

Quote:

This is pretty simple. First and foremost God gets the glory and us being saved is a BI-PRODUCT of God getting the glory but not us being saved is a determining factor of God getting the glory

I'm fine with that in it's basic form but then comes the paradox that God getting the Glory fails to produce that by-product 100%
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:33 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,448,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
How does it work? Easy.

We love him because he first loved us. This without the constraint of time that is unscripturtally asserted produces the choice to the success of Jesus mission. To save the world.

There actually is no paradox, but your doctrine presents one no matter how you try to work around it.

I'm fine with that in it's basic form but then comes the paradox that God getting the Glory fails to produce that by-product 100%
YES! There is...any theological student can see that.

Romans 9:19–21 (NIV)
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of

John 3:16 (NIV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Romans 10:9–10 (NIV)
9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Romans 3:19 (NIV)
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:39 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,681,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
YES! There is...any theological student can see that.

Romans 9:19–21 (NIV)
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of

John 3:16 (NIV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Romans 10:9–10 (NIV)
9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Romans 3:19 (NIV)
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.


We love God "BECAUSE" he loves us.


There is no problem there, it takes care of every other problem that can be addressed.

Only mans perspectives and arguments get in the way.
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:51 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,148 posts, read 19,964,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
We love God "BECAUSE" he loves us.


There is no problem there, it takes care of every other problem that can be addressed.

Only mans perspectives and arguments get in the way.
Amen
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