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Old 10-12-2009, 03:32 PM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,599,981 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
My question is this ...

Have you ever known someone and loved them truly, either a friend or a family member, who was not a Christian and has died?
NOPE, cuz that's not my place to make that call. Only God knows what that person did moments before death. Only God knows that person's heart at the moment they died. ONLY God can judge whether that person was a 'Christian' at the time of death.

And btw... no one has been judged/condemed, and or cast into the lake of fire since the final judgement hasn't happened yet.
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Old 10-12-2009, 05:31 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,499,906 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
My question is this ...

Have you ever known someone and loved them truly, either a friend or a family member, who was not a Christian and has died?
Not so much a friend, (most of my friends and all my family are saved) but I have known co-workers, or guys from school that were lost and never turned to God before they died.
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Old 10-12-2009, 06:06 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,226,652 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post

WOW! There it is folks, universalism in a nutshell "The gospel of me, I, us, they, we, them, you, my, mine"

To answer your question, this is exactly why you don't understand us because we put God's glory first, we talk, teach, preach about God's glory and not man.
In my opinion, you don't have a clue what Gods Glory is. Gods Glory is saving an undeserving creation. Gods Glory is making something Good out of something evil. Gods glory is the trans-formative and healing power if his being, which is love.
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Old 10-12-2009, 06:40 PM
 
2,945 posts, read 4,787,539 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
The only reason I oppose UR as much as I do, is because of the cult like status the followers all share.
I believe organized religion,in particular ET taught religions are cultish. Either believe like we do or God will never have mery on your soul and you will be tortured alive. Listen to the fervor from the pulpits in which it is preached. They yell and scream from the pulpits, point fingers, stamp their feet,etc. If you have ever watched a film clip of hitler there is a great similarity.
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ETer's are just taught by their pastors that this is truth. The pastors will be the ones giving accounting for their teachings if they are wrong.
You make my point. You just follow along with whatever your pastor says and if he`s wrong, oh well it`s on him. You will be held accountable for the things you`ve said and done, not your pastor. Your pastor isn`t on this website proclaiming torture for literally billions of people, you are!
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UR's seem to think that they have an inside revealing that truly resembles a classic cult like society.
Once again, the exact opposite is true. Cults think they have the only way. Follow them or you are doomed. Sounds a lot like what you believe doesn`t it. Believe what I believe or you will be tortured forever. Cu is actually about as far as you can get from a cult. We believe EVERYONE will be rejoicing together one day. YOU believe, only like minded people that believe as you do will gain special favor from God and spend eternity in heavenly bliss. Now which one sounds more like a cult? The one that is exclusive to like minded people or the one that is inclusive of everyone?

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Really, look at the posts from the UR camp. Most regular topics discussed, ALWAYS lead somehow into their belief of UR. Even simple discussions. It truly is like the kool-aid drinkers.
Again, the exact opposite is true. Every post by Et`ers result in...YOU MUST BELIEVE AS I DO OR YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN. YOU MUST BELIEVE LIKE I DO OR YOU WILL BE TORTURED FOREVER. How many times have we heard the line, you are not a christian if you don`t do this or you don`t believe that.Whether you are talking about the rapture,the trinity,or most anything else. It is people like yourself that deem OTHERS not christian, not part of the club, doomed to dispair,suffering,torture, while you enjoy happines,bliss, glory. You teach that others have to believe like you do or be part of your club to incur favor from God. Your beliefs are the ones of an extremely dangerous cultish environment.

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If the doctrine of hell brings people away from God, then they were not of God to start with. Hell is mentioned in the bible countless times.
By hell, if you mean the grave, then you are right.

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So, they are preaching what they know.
Wrong again. They are teaching what they have been taught. Just like a cult.

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The UR camp is the extreme opposite of ET.
you got that right!

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]Instead of burning in hell forever, they are just accepted and saved.
You are being dishonest,AGAIN. Name one person on here, who believes in God`s restoration, that says you are just accepted and saved. We have gone over this time and time again. It has been explained to you over and over and yet you still purposely want to spread false information about God`s restoration. Why do you continue to bear false witness about the doctrine of Chrsitian Universalism? The line about how you didn`t know or understand is getting old. You are one of the ones who has been on here long enough to know better. So I beleive you must be purposely doing it. If you don`t understand about chrsitian universalism, then just admit you don`t know anything about it and stop posting foolish nonsense that is not true.

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Ask most people logically who do not believe in God, what is the most likely doctrine, AFTER they know about the extreme Holiness of God.
Ask most people logically who do not believe God about the love of God, which is the most likely doctrine. A lot of people who do not believe in God,feel that way because of the way western cultish religions such as ET have portrayed God. It`s the cultlike religion of ET that they reject, not God.

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A sinner standing without an advocate, and a sinner with one. Who is going to be saved? I look at it like 2 men swimming in the ocean, and one brought a life jacket. Who will most LIKELY make it?
I look at it like 2 men in a lake and neither know how to swim. The person who is responsible for putting them in the lake is standing on the shore and reaching out for them but NEITHER wants help. They do not even know they are drowning. The man on the shore tells them they are drowning and need help. But they are both human and have human pride. So the man on the shore reaches out and grabs both of them and pulls them out. He may pull one out first and let the other slpash around a while till he knows he needs help.
The difference is those that follow the religion and churchology of men and ET believe they are smarter than the other guy drowning. They think because they were wise enough to grab onto the man`s hand ,that`s why they were saved.They think because of their wisdom in reaching out and accepting the man`s hand, they were saved, while the people still in the lake who are not smart like them will drown. They don`t realize they had nothing to do with it. The man grabbed them, they didn`t grab him. CU`s know we didn`t have anything to do with being saved. The man on the shore chose to have mercy on us. But he has no respect of persons. He loves all who are drowning in the lake, not just some, and he will pull them out of the lake just like he did us. So he will grab a hold of all of us and save us from drowning. First we have to realize that we need saving. Some have to stay in the lake a little longer.

Last edited by spm62; 10-12-2009 at 06:50 PM..
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Old 10-12-2009, 06:44 PM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,570,459 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
No I don't because I do say, we have a choice-that somehow our fate is decided by the individual as well. The bible is clear about that but then I end it right there. I DO NOT SPECULATE as you are doing. We are not given anymore so i am not gonna fill in the blank unless I see it in scripture.
But we are given more.
  • God worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
  • The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
  • A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
  • And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
None of that negates us making choices that affect our fate. We make choices according to our hearts/wills, but God makes choices that change our hearts/wills.
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Old 10-12-2009, 06:53 PM
 
Location: Florida
581 posts, read 634,666 times
Reputation: 149
Mother, commited suicide. Many were sent to her and preached the Gospel.
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Old 10-12-2009, 06:54 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,226,652 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
But after reading all the posts coming from the UR camp, all I see is:

The same arguments, over and over.

What does this have to do with God? Because the doctrine of UR appeases the carnal mind does not make the doctrine truth. You all should know this. I asked for verses that you all claim to believe, stating at a man has mutiple chances AFTER the death of the body to come into full repentance, and there are none. Every knee bowing is not even a qualifyer, because I showed the last verse in Isaiah after ALL mankind bowed, looking upon the dead corpses of those who transgressed God. We can only come up with conjectures on what that verse even means.
Lets start with the accusation you make which i have highlighted in red. The doctrine of UR according to you appeases the carnal mind?

What is carnal? Is love carnal? Is hope carnal? Is forgiveness carnal? Is trying to understand another persons perspective and getting on their level to identify with them carnal?

Then the other side of the coin ... Is hate carnal? Is fear carnal? Is accusation and condemnation carnal? Is refusing to try and see from another persons perspective and being sanctimonious so that you think your better than someone else carnal?

I have already quoted 1 Pe 4:6, but you just say it does not mean what it clearly says.

1 Pe 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Or how about 1 Pe 3:19?

1 Pe 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; ...

But you say these do not refer either to the gospel being preached to humans that have died, or to fallen angels. Who is taking the bible at face value in this case? I know the bible isn't always to be understood literally, better than fundamentalists do. But it is just a matter of how you interpret it and from what spirit you are receiving your understanding concerning the scripture.

Concerning Isaiah, it is obvious that using proper exegesis that death is swallowed up in victory prior to the creation of the new heavens and earth. Isaiah in specific has a way of writing that is in many ways enigmatic. For instance Isaiah chapter 57 ... The whole chapter is dealing with the wicked and evil people of every variety ... It speaks of how God will heal them and restore comforts unto them and those that mourn them. But at the end of the chapter is says that there is no peace for the wicked. Is Isaiah, or God who inspired him to write contradicting himself in the very same chapter? Is he saying that he will heal the wicked and restore comforts to them, but that they will not be healed or not have peace at the same time? Or is he simply stating that while the wicked are yet wicked, before they are healed, that they have no peace? You only choose to understand it the way that conforms to your traditional understanding of judgment.


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People worry about their dead loved ones, and the outcome of their fate? Why? Jesus said let the dead bury the dead. We are commanded to preach to those we love, and if you all claim to love everyone, then you should be preaching to everyone, starting with your family. Then this issue is a non issue. Faith comes by hearing the Word. Even if they think you to be crazy and persecute you, does not change the fact that you must still preach to them, if you love them.
I tell people the good news that regardless of what they choose to believe now, one day they will believe even if by pain of judgment. But i dont use the irrational threat of everlasting pain to try and convince them to love God. It is antithetical to the nature of God, and to the nature of love. To expect someone to love someone out of fear is to not understand love to begin with. Man would rather be feared than loved, god would rather be loved than feared. And it is Gods goodness that draws us to himself, and we love him because we learn that he first loved us (1 John 4:19). Not the other way around as you would have people believe. Again, you think by threatening someone with everlasting tortures or everlasting death is what causes them to believe, that somehow it is you and your idle threats that convince people to believe, but that is in direct contradiction with what the bible says about it. As we have already shown, Faith and belief are by the election of God and not by the will of man. And the only reason why people do not believe in this life is because God has choosen not to make them believe. They are not elected to the household of faith.

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I personally do not believe in ET. But because I do not believe in it, doesn't mean that it is not so. I personally do not believe in UR. But because I don't believe in it, does not mean that it, also, is not so. Why? Because I TRULY don't know. That is God's department. From what I read out of the Word, I personally believe in annihilation. At the same time, it does not make this so.
Indeed, and we all might be wrong about Christianity altogether, and maybe Muslim's are the ones who have it right ... Or Hindu's ... What matters is how what we believe effects our lives and the way we relate to others. What matters is the fruit of our faith and whether it creates ties that bind, or destruction. Whether is exhorts to love and life, or hate and death. More than that if you profess to believe in Christ, shouldn't you believe that love is the most important thing? Even more important that knowledge or prophecy or works?

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Really, what we should be doing is proclaiming Christ. That is it. Leave the dead to God. Whether they be children, or our favorite loving grandmother. For they are either ending up with Him, or they are not. What we currently believe pertaining to them, does not make it so. Wish we may, wish we might.
That is not completely true. Because we are dealing with hope and faith in the righteous judgments of God and the effects they will have not only in our lives now while we are yet alive, but in the world to come. The Gospel of Christ is the Good news that he has died and resurrected to conquer death for the whole creation. And to make an end of the works of the devil , so that sin and death will have no victory in the fullness of times. That is the very nature of the Gospel.

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Whether we know things to be undisputed facts or not is the question. I think it egotistical on our parts to claim something pertaining to the after life as something as a certainty, when in reality, we just don't know. We have not been there. At least I haven't. But we are being led. We get excited when new revelations are given to us, and we desire to share them with everyone. I can tell just by reading this forum. As well we should be. But with that, we should be cautious. Why?
I teach the victory of Christ over sin and death. No if's and's or but's. Not a partial victory, but a complete victory. Anything less is not worthy of his name.

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To each is given Truth in measurements that we can handle. The Truth today may not be the same level of Truth tomorrow. Remember the "crumbs"? As we grow as Christians, so must our knowledge of Him grow as well. Are we there yet? I tend to think no man is there, otherwise they would have FULL knowledge, and with that, the Power of the Almighty working through them.
Indeed ... Who is growing in the spirit of love and faith, and who is stagnating? Who is rising above the teachings and manipulations of established traditions of men, and who is clinging to them for fear or for some other less innocent reason? I know what i am risking by believing and proclaiming it to the world. I'm not playing it safe by standing up to the established religious bourgeois, on threat of anethema and damnation by men. Im standing up for what i believe to be true regardless of the consequences. I am living by my conscience, and don't think for a second I don't have moments of doubt and fear and condemnation especially in light of how what i am saying is received by so many who are supposed to be my brothers and sisters in Christ. But i rise above and overcome by the spirit of love within me. And I'll gladly lay down my life and my reputation if need be in order to do it.

Amen and Selah ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-12-2009 at 07:18 PM..
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Old 10-12-2009, 07:24 PM
 
Location: Pikeville, Ky.
13,476 posts, read 21,278,472 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercy777 View Post
Mother, commited suicide. Many were sent to her and preached the Gospel.
This post caught my attenion..I had a nephew who committed suicide..He had many personal problems..Not many people understood the pain, the guilt, the helplessness and the hopelessness he suffered in this life..He was young, he was humble, he was loving, he was thoughtful and he wrote beautiful prayers and letters to God..

I wept for this child of 18 years, because so many condemned him to hell, because of his suicide..They passed judgements on His beliefs. They boasted with many tears about how they had tried to "save" him by forcing their beliefs on him..

I believe that God knows what was in his heart and in his mind and was there in those final desperate moments when he jumped off the balcony with a rope around his neck. I do not pretend to know the mind of God except that He is all loving and by His Grace we are saved...
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Old 10-12-2009, 07:36 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,226,652 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercy777 View Post
Mother, commited suicide. Many were sent to her and preached the Gospel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Blue View Post
This post caught my attenion..I had a nephew who committed suicide..He had many personal problems..Not many people understood the pain, the guilt, the helplessness and the hopelessness he suffered in this life..He was young, he was humble, he was loving, he was thoughtful and he wrote beautiful prayers and letters to God..

I wept for this child of 18 years, because so many condemned him to hell, because of his suicide..They passed judgements on His beliefs. They boasted with many tears about how they had tried to "save" him by forcing their beliefs on him..

I believe that God knows what was in his heart and in his mind and was there in those final desperate moments when he jumped off the balcony with a rope around his neck. I do not pretend to know the mind of God except that He is all loving and by His Grace we are saved...
I share your grief. My Brother committed suicide as well. And he was my best friend ... They were not criminals for it, they were victims ... The lord will not reject them. No matter what sanctimonious men and women say and believe.
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Old 10-12-2009, 09:14 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,386,589 times
Reputation: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Lets start with the accusation you make which i have highlighted in red. The doctrine of UR according to you appeases the carnal mind?
Yes. It is because you cannot handle the thought of those who have died without Christ not being in Christ's presence. So you hold out hope, clinging on teachings and verses taken out of context, praying that you are right. Chances upon chances to finally get it right.

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What is carnal? Is love carnal? Is hope carnal? Is forgiveness carnal?
Depends on what you define as love, hope, and forgiveness. These can be human emotions, as well they can be divine.

Is trying to understand another persons perspective and getting on their level to identify with them carnal?

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Then the other side of the coin ... Is hate carnal? Is fear carnal? Is accusation and condemnation carnal?
Yes these are. We know they are not divine, as far as God is concerned. For the lesser angelic creations, perhaps.

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Is refusing to try and see from another persons perspective and being sanctimonious so that you think your better than someone else carnal?
I didn't refuse to see it from "your" perspective. As far as attacking me personally, I think you need to read the rules of the forums.

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I have already quoted 1 Pe 4:6, but you just say it does not mean what it clearly says.
Where did I say this?

Quote:
1 Pe 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Yes, this is Jesus preaching the Gospel to those of the FAITH prior to Him being brought to earth. Abraham, Issac, Jacob and the rest.

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Or how about 1 Pe 3:19?

1 Pe 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; ...
Same thing.

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But you say these do not refer either to the gospel being preached to humans that have died, or to fallen angels.
Where did I say this?

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Who is taking the bible at face value in this case?
Umm, ok.

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I know the bible isn't always to be understood literally, better than fundamentalists do.
Again, ok. Never said that either.

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But it is just a matter of how you interpret it and from what spirit you are receiving your understanding concerning the scripture.
Now that, I have said also.

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Concerning Isaiah, it is obvious that using proper exegesis that death is swallowed up in victory prior to the creation of the new heavens and earth.
I don't need proper exegesis. Why do you claim this when you just said that it isn't always to be taken literally. It seems you wear the shoe that suits you best at the moment.


Quote:
Isaiah in specific has a way of writing that is in many ways enigmatic.
Isaiah 66:24 says something quite plain and simple.

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me

Who are the people looking at those dead carcases? Those who bowed just in the prior verse, right? Who are the dead? Those who transgressed AGAINST God.


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For instance Isaiah chapter 57 ... The whole chapter is dealing with the wicked and evil people of every variety ... It speaks of how God will heal them and restore comforts unto them and those that mourn them.
Isaiah 58 says Jacob is the father of those He is talking to. The Jewish people. Chapter 60 and on goes into the Gentiles.

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But at the end of the chapter is says that there is no peace for the wicked. Is Isaiah, or God who inspired him to write contradicting himself in the very same chapter? Is he saying that he will heal the wicked and restore comforts to them, but that they will not be healed or not have peace at the same time? Or is he simply stating that while the wicked are yet wicked, before they are healed, that they have no peace? You only choose to understand it the way that conforms to your traditional understanding of judgment.
Pointless. Making contradictory statements about the Word is pointless. Read it in context.


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I tell people the good news that regardless of what they choose to believe now, one day they will believe even if by pain of judgment.
Cool, so you speak for God now?

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But i dont use the irrational threat of everlasting pain to try and convince them to love God.
Irrational is a carnal concept, not divine.

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It is antithetical to the nature of God, and to the nature of love.
According to your definition of Love. Being in love, and bring defined AS Love are 2 different things. Get the emotions out of the way, and see it for what it is.

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To expect someone to love someone out of fear is to not understand love to begin with.
Then discount the OT then. Most usually do who believe different doctrines.

Fear of the Lord, is the beginning of wisdom. Notice it said BEGINNING.

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Man would rather be feared than loved, god would rather be loved than feared.
Men who desire power would desire this. Men who wouldn't do not. Need to stop generalizing.

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And it is Gods goodness that draws us to himself, and we love him because we learn that he first loved us (1 John 4:19).
If you are drawn, you should be thankful. He chose you. Not the other way around.

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Not the other way around as you would have people believe.
Where did I say that? Read my above sentence.

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Again, you think by threatening someone with everlasting tortures or everlasting death is what causes them to believe, that somehow it is you and your idle threats that convince people to believe, but that is in direct contradiction with what the bible says about it.
You are getting good at telling me what I think. I do not base what I think when witnessing. I tell them what the Bible says, and how I feel God has done a work in my life. I tell them about His Love, and and His Son. I also tell them not to take my word on anything, and to search God out for themselves.


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As we have already shown, Faith and belief are by the election of God and not by the will of man.
Faith is already measured out to ALL mankind, so they are without excuse. Belief is here faith leads. God does the dragging. Like a rope to a drowning man, the man must take hold of it in order to be saved. Once taking hold of it, God drags him in. Guess who the rope is?

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And the only reason why people do not believe in this life is because God has choosen not to make them believe.
Really? Where does it say that? A "partial" hardening happened to Israel, only for the sake of the Gentile.

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They are not elected to the household of faith.
Really? Faith is measured out to ALL mankind, so they are without excuse.

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Indeed, and we all might be wrong about Christianity altogether, and maybe Muslim's are the ones who have it right ... Or Hindu's ... What matters is how what we believe effects our lives and the way we relate to others.
Now that is a stretch, but I see where you are coming from.

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What matters is the fruit of our faith and whether it creates ties that bind, or destruction.
Destruction does not come from those who are True followers of Jesus Christ.

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Whether is exhorts to love and life, or hate and death.
If Jesus is TRULY living inside of you, then hate is not your priority. Death will happen regardless to this body, but life eternal begins the moment you confess Jesus as Lord,,or rather King.

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More than that if you profess to believe in Christ, shouldn't you believe that love is the most important thing?
Again, define your version of love. If you are talking of the emotion of love, then no. If you are taking the benevolant kind, then yes.

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Even more important that knowledge or prophecy or works?
Those come by the Power of God. He does not give those without you first coming into the Fold.

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That is not completely true. Because we are dealing with hope and faith in the righteous judgments of God and the effects they will have not only in our lives now while we are yet alive, but in the world to come.
Again you are letting your emotions get in the way, no different than Peter did when telling Jesus He wasn't going to let Him go to the cross.

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The Gospel of Christ is the Good news that he has died and resurrected to conquer death for the whole creation.
He didn't just conquer death. He gave us life. Access to something previously not attainable. Prior to His ressurection, no man was judged, as all those prior were dead and buried. He is the first born of the dead.


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And to make an end of the works of the devil , so that sin and death will have no victory in the fullness of times.
Death is not the work of the devil. It is the consequence of falling from grace. The result of sin.


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That is the very nature of the Gospel.
According to what you believe.

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I teach the victory of Christ over sin and death.
Good. I teach that the Teacher showed the Way. He wasn't the substitute, He was the example.

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No if's and's or but's.
Again, according to you.

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Not a partial victory, but a complete victory.
Yes, this is Jesus' victory, not yours. Leave the credit where it is. It is called submission to the King.

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Anything less is not worthy of his name.
Anything and EVERYTHING is worthy of His name. He is my Creator.

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Indeed ... Who is growing in the spirit of love and faith, and who is stagnating?
Art thou lifting thyself up? Having haughty eyes and thoughts? Careful now.

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Who is rising above the teachings and manipulations of established traditions of men, and who is clinging to them for fear or for some other less innocent reason?
Again, what is with these questions? I got a better one for you. If your doctrine is complete Truth, and you have been given this by His
Power, prove it.

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I know what i am risking by believing and proclaiming it to the world.
Really, I do not believe that statement. If you did, you would act a little more humble than you do.

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I'm not playing it safe by standing up to the established religious bourgeois, on threat of anethema and damnation by men.
Standing up? To whom?

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Im standing up for what i believe to be true regardless of the consequences.
Sounds like more lifting up of you again. What is with the me, me, me.

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I am living by my conscience, and don't think for a second I don't have moments of doubt and fear and condemnation especially in light of how what i am saying is received by so many who are supposed to be my brothers and sisters in Christ.
I don't see this either. I see you being so indoctrinated by the seduction of an easy gospel message that plays to the egos of sinners, and weak women.

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But i rise above and overcome by the spirit of love within me.
Again, you keep lifting yourself up. What is with this?


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And I'll gladly lay down my life and my reputation if need be in order to do it.
Well, this can only be proven when that time comes. We shall see.

So be it....
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