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Old 10-12-2009, 09:24 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,689,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
So you hold out hope

Right, the hope Jesus Christ is all about, not the doctrines of the defeated Jesus.
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Old 10-12-2009, 09:26 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,491,000 times
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someone needs an editor....
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Old 10-12-2009, 09:40 PM
 
Location: Southern Willamette Valley, Oregon
6,495 posts, read 7,573,894 times
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After reading the posts on this thread, and many on this forum in general, I have no doubt in my mind that many people will be extremely shocked about where they land in the afterlife.
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Old 10-12-2009, 09:45 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,689,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ditchlights View Post
After reading the posts on this thread, and many on this forum in general, I have no doubt in my mind that many people will be extremely shocked about where they land in the afterlife.

Exactly, it will be far greater than we can ever even imagine.
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Old 10-12-2009, 09:46 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,399,716 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Isaiah 66:24 says something quite plain and simple.

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me

Who are the people looking at those dead carcases? Those who bowed just in the prior verse, right? Who are the dead? Those who transgressed AGAINST God.
I just had to butt in here... sorry.

It strikes me that you don't realize who transgressed against God. Romans 3:23... ALL MEN! So which people are looking at whose "dead carcasses."

Well if we know that ALL MEN transgress and those who are dead, transgressed...then who are the people looking on? They are looking at their own carcasses.

So yes it is plain but if you aren't reading to understand.... you will never see what is plain.



Quote:
I don't see this either. I see you being so indoctrinated by the seduction of an easy gospel message that plays to the egos of sinners, and weak women.
And you are neither a weak woman or a sinner... right? This easy gospel message is no different than your difficult one.

The only difference is that in UR God grabs you for salvation and will grab everyone. In ET it is left up to the human to seek God and if you say a prayer you won't go to the dreaded...hell.

I am indebted to God because He brought you into Grace, so every effort is made to please Him by forsaking sin.

Seems like ERers believe everyone but them is indebted to God for their sins and if they can't live a sinless life and believe in Christ they will be burned forever.

Do you see the difference? In fact I'm probably wrong about ERers but that is how I thought as an ERer. Same basic principal applies to Annihilation.
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Old 10-12-2009, 11:35 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,376,981 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I just had to butt in here... sorry.
Quite alright.

Quote:
It strikes me that you don't realize who transgressed against God. Romans 3:23... ALL MEN! So which people are looking at whose "dead carcasses."

Well if we know that ALL MEN transgress and those who are dead, transgressed...then who are the people looking on? They are looking at their own carcasses.

So yes it is plain but if you aren't reading to understand.... you will never see what is plain.

Actually, that is your "take" on it. Those who are bowing are those who are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. Their sins are remembered NO MORE, as if they never happened. Otherwise, we do not have standing in front of God our Father. It is as if we never sinned at all. That is the Good News, even though we don't deserve it, as sinners. But it is our belief towards repentence from our sinful ways, and submission to Jesus Christ as King and High Priest that gives us this standing. It is not a "blanket" get out of anything free card.


Quote:
And you are neither a weak woman or a sinner... right? This easy gospel message is no different than your difficult one.
Sure it is. You can swallow this one right up, because it is built for the weak people. Think about it. There is no overcoming, no hard felt humility and no complete submission to Christ King with Laws to follow. This is why the homosexual flocks to this church. Yes, I watched a show about the black preacher from OK who fell from grace concerning UR, and the only place that took him in was a church that was full of those types of people. Go figure.

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The only difference is that in UR God grabs you for salvation and will grab everyone.
Again, I repeat the above.

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In ET it is left up to the human to seek God and if you say a prayer you won't go to the dreaded...hell.
Actually that is the "Graham Formula" and it is not biblical either.

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I am indebted to God because He brought you into Grace, so every effort is made to please Him by forsaking sin.
EVERY EFFORT. So why is it that the willfull sinners flock to the UR camp? Is it because of the blanket acceptence?

Quote:
Seems like ERers believe everyone but them is indebted to God for their sins and if they can't live a sinless life and believe in Christ they will be burned forever.
I am not an ETer so I will not speak for them.

Quote:
Do you see the difference? In fact I'm probably wrong about ERers but that is how I thought as an ERer.
So because you were wrong, you apply your wrong thinking to everyone?

Quote:
Same basic principal applies to Annihilation.

No it doesn't.
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Old 10-12-2009, 11:40 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,292,960 times
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1 Cor 15:32 ..... if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

If I was to become UR....why would I need to believe in Jesus when I already know that I am going to be redeemed...I might as well get me some heroin and crack, a few shots of Jim Beam and maybe kill a few people wihile I am at it.

What is the purpose of salvation when there is nothing to be saved from?
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Old 10-12-2009, 11:46 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,207,476 times
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[quote=HotinAZ;11161717]
Quote:
Yes. It is because you cannot handle the thought of those who have died without Christ not being in Christ's presence. So you hold out hope, clinging on teachings and verses taken out of context, praying that you are right. Chances upon chances to finally get it right.
There is no scripture that says that those who do not believe will not be in Christs presence for ever. When you bring up the judgment of Goat nations and Sheep nations you are misunderstanding that they are the people who are alive and remain at the return of Christ. Some will enter into the new city(sheep nations), the others will not but will be in outer darkness(Goat nations). However the outer darkness and the lake of fire are different things altogether. However due to bad exegesis on the part of the pastor teachers you depend on to learn from, they have been wrongly considered synonymous. At the lake of fire judgment, they will be in the presence of the lamb and his angels(Rev 14:10).


I am only believing the original Gospel which was taught by the vast majority of early Christians. You are the one who believes an apostate doctrine from that which was the original teaching.

"In the West this doctrine had fewer adherents and was never accepted by the Church at large. In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist; one (Ephesus) accepted conditional mortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked.”
* Seymour, Charles. A Theodicy of Hell. p. 25. Springer (2000). ISBN 0792363647.
* Ludlow, Morwenna. Universal Salvation: eschatology in the thought of Gregory of Nyssa and Karl Rahner. Pp. 1-2. Oxford University Press (2000). ISBN 0198270224.

The doctrine of eternal torture and eternal death were only marginal beliefs that were not accepted by most early native Koine Greek speaking Christians.

Quote:
Depends on what you define as love, hope, and forgiveness. These can be human emotions, as well they can be divine.
If you believe that love and hope and forgiveness are carnal it says everything anyone needs to know about you and the reasons for you clinging to these false doctrines of men.

Quote:
Is trying to understand another persons perspective and getting on their level to identify with them carnal?
1Cr 9:19-23
For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.


Quote:
Yes these are. We know they are not divine, as far as God is concerned. For the lesser angelic creations, perhaps.
These carnal things are more akin to the doctrine of eternal torture and eternal death than universal reconciliation by far. Do you love your enemies? Or do you just say that you do while in truth you rejoice in their everlasting suffering or annihilation?

Quote:
I didn't refuse to see it from "your" perspective. As far as attacking me personally, I think you need to read the rules of the forums.
This is silly, I said nothing about you, i asked you a question...

"Is refusing to try and see from another persons perspective and being sanctimonious so that you think your better than someone else carnal?"

That was my question, it was not an accusation. If you resemble the subject of the question that has nothing to do with me.

Quote:
Where did I say this?
Perhaps in an earlier thread?


Quote:
Yes, this is Jesus preaching the Gospel to those of the FAITH prior to Him being brought to earth. Abraham, Issac, Jacob and the rest.
Where does it say that? Are you just making it up or do you have a scripture?



Quote:
Same thing.
Scripture?



Quote:
Where did I say this?
In another thread? Maybe it wasn't you, maybe it was another who believes in annihilation or ET. But i have mentioned it so many times it is simply ridiculous if you haven't noticed it seeing as you are always saying their is no chance after death. Only now you say there is/was for the old testament Jews.


Quote:
Umm, ok.



Again, ok. Never said that either.



Now that, I have said also.



You don't need proper exegesis. Why do you claim this when you just said that it isn't always to be taken literally. It seems you wear the shoe that suits you best at the moment.
You don't have proper exegesis that is for sure. Proper exegesis does not specify literal figurative or symbolic language in and of itself by relies on the ability to ascertain the difference between them and when each type of language is used. I don't see how this has anything to do with anything i posted. Just seems like a lazy response to me along with the rest of your entire post.



Quote:
Isaiah 66:24 says something quite plain and simple.

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me

Who are the people looking at those dead carcases? Those who bowed just in the prior verse, right? Who are the dead? Those who transgressed AGAINST God.
No ... That is not right. You are applying a chronology to the events being prophesied by the order in which the prophesies are stated. That again is bad exegesis. The book of revelations and the prophecies therein are clearly not in Chronological order from beginning to end, and neither are many of the prophesies of the old testament.

Again, if you exegete scripture properly you'll find that death is destroyed before the creation of the new heavens and new earth. Therefore the seperate prophecy of Isaiah 66:24 cannot take place after the prophecy of verse 22.

To think that a stinking pit of rotting corpses will inhabit eternity within the new heavens and earth which will be an abhorrence to all nations and to think that Christ will wipe away the tears from the eyes of the people and make the evils of this life like a fading dream at the same time is simply irrational and due to really bad exegesis.


Quote:
Isaiah 58 says Jacob is the father of those He is talking to. The Jewish people. Chapter 60 and on goes into the Gentiles.
So you are saying that God is a respecter of persons? That he will heal the wicked Jews but not the wicked gentiles? After the death and resurrection of Christ the blessings and judgments which were in the old covenant reserved for Israel were made for all people and all nations. Do you see the old testament as an answer to the new testament? I see it the other way around.


Quote:
Pointless. Making contradictory statements about the Word is pointless. Read it in context.
It seems you do not have the spiritual aptitude to even comprehend the point that i was making. I made no contradictory statement about the bible. I said either Isaiah is contradicting himself in that verse, or along with all who deny this teaching, you are misunderstanding what it is saying to begin with.


Quote:

Cool, so you speak for God now?
Phl 2:11
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Paul spoke for him, I am only repeating what he taught throughout the new testament epistles which he wrote.

Quote:

Irrational is a carnal concept, not divine.
Indeed, everlasting torture is a carnal irrational concept, and it is obviously not divine.




Quote:
According to your definition of Love. Being in love, and bring defined AS Love are 2 different things. Get the emotions out of the way, and see it for what it is.
Love and lust are two different things. But the love a a man for his wife is the same as his love for his children without the sexual attraction. Love is not an emotion, it is the highest ideal. It is the perfect form of all that is Good. God is love. everything that God does derives from his nature which is love. Fundamentalists like to try and separate Gods love from his righteousness and his glory and his judgments. That is simply in error.

Quote:
Then discount the OT then. Most usually do who believe different doctrines.
I cant understand what you are trying to say here. I will try to respond to what i think you are saying. I do not discount the old testament, i understand it in light of the new testament. The old testament was about conviction of sin and the wages thereof. The new testament answers the old and provides humanity with the means of escaping the wages of sin, which means is the cross of Christ and his fiery judgments.

Quote:
Fear of the Lord, is the beginning of wisdom. Notice it said BEGINNING.
Fear of the lord and Loving God are two different things. First of all fearing the lord is a childish relationship with him before you recognize that his judgments are rooted in his love. It is the beginning of wisdom, not the end. The end of wisdom is love of the lord, when you have learned to understand his intentions for his commandments and judgments are not to put you in bondage or to brutalize you, but they are to protect you and heal you.

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Men who desire power would desire this. Men who wouldn't do not. Need to stop generalizing.
Carnal men desire it, spiritual men do not. If you cannot tell the difference you have allot to learn.


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If you are drawn, you should be thankful. He chose you. Not the other way around.
That is what i am saying in case you didn't notice ... ?


Quote:
Where did I say that? Read my above sentence.
So then you agree. The only reason why anyone does not believe in Christ is because God has not made them believe in Christ. So you believe God intentionally conceals his truth from the vast majority of humans in order to kill them for ever or torture them forever? Then you believe God doesn't really want to save all men ...

1Ti 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Do you think that Paul was lying?


Quote:
You are getting good at telling me what I think. I do not base what I think when witnessing. I tell them what the Bible says, and how I feel God has done a work in my life. I tell them about His Love, and and His Son. I also tell them not to take my word on anything, and to search God out for themselves.
That is not the word of your witness in this forum. You are a staunch defender of either ET or annihilation, i cant tell which from one thread to the next as you seem to change your mind depending on the topic under discussion. But maybe i am just confusing you with another here on CD. Regardless of your belief, your arguments are all the same. Those that believe in ET and in annihilation. The only difference is in the final outcome of the fiery judgments of god. However you believe you all defend what you believe the same way.




Quote:
Faith is already measured out to ALL mankind, so they are without excuse. Belief is here faith leads. God does the dragging. Like a rope to a drowning man, the man must take hold of it in order to be saved. Once taking hold of it, God drags him in. Guess who the rope is?
Now you are saying you chose to believe in god. Which is it? Did God choose you or did you choose to believe in him? Make up your mind ...

Will you quote the scripture that says faith was measured out for all mankind? I cannot remember a verse that says that. I remember a verse that says God is evident by the work of his creation, but a subconcious knowledge of Gods existence and belief in Christ are completely different things.



Quote:
Really? Where does it say that? A "partial" hardening happened to Israel, only for the sake of the Gentile.
And they will all be saved according to Paul.

Rom 11:26
"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob"



Quote:
Really? Faith is measured out to ALL mankind, so they are without excuse.
Chapter and verse please?



Quote:
Now that is a stretch, but I see where you are coming from.
Indeed ...



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Destruction does not come from those who are True followers of Jesus Christ.
True followers? If you tell someone who has family and friends who have died and they believed in some other religion other that Christianity that their family and friends are forever being tortured in hell or are forever dead and that they will not ever see them again you are destroying their ability to love God and their hope for reunion with their loved ones. Too bad you can understand that.



Quote:
If Jesus is TRULY living inside of you, then hate is not your priority. Death will happen regardless to this body, but life eternal begins the moment you confess Jesus as Lord,,or rather King.
If you are teaching eternal death or eternal torture, you are teaching hate. To bad you cant understand this either.


Quote:
Again, define your version of love. If you are talking of the emotion of love, then no. If you are taking the benevolant kind, then yes.
All love is the same. You are mistaking lust for love. Romantic love if it is true love is the same love that we have for family and friends and the same love we should have for our neighbors and enemies minus the physical Chemistry.



Quote:
Those come by the Power of God. He does not give those without you first coming into the Fold.
Indeed, the point is love is the greatest of all. But you dont seem to appreciate that fact nearly enough ... Or you would not be so resistant to the word of reconciliation especialy with the abundance of evidences provided for it in this forum especially.

Quote:
Again you are letting your emotions get in the way, no different than Peter did when telling Jesus He wasn't going to let Him go to the cross.
I am doing no such thing I am only speaking about the love of Christ and for all people and his complete victory over sin and death which will be testified in due time. That is the gospel.


Quote:
He didn't just conquer death. He gave us life. Access to something previously not attainable. Prior to His ressurection, no man was judged, as all those prior were dead and buried. He is the first born of the dead.
Death is the wages of sin, not eternal torture. All will be resurrected, the righteous and the unrighteous alike. The fiery judgments the wicked will suffer will be for their purification and sanctification, or else he just would leave them dead.




Quote:
Death is not the work of the devil. It is the consequence of falling from grace. The result of sin.
Semantics ... Nevertheless i believe you are wrong.

Isa 54:16
Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Destruction of life is death, and Satan is the destroyer.




Quote:
According to what you believe.
According to what the bible teaches. If Christs victory over sin and death is not the gospel, pray tell what is?

Quote:

Good. I teach that the Teacher showed the Way. He wasn't the substitute, He was the example.
Jesus didn't show the way, he IS the way. Jesus was the sacrifice. He died for us. You are teaching a legalistic doctrine if you deny we are saved BY Christs death and resurrection.



Quote:
Again, according to you.
Well now i can see you don't believe that Christ has the victory over sin and death completely. I am not surprised. I have been saying that all along. You are showing your true colors sir.



Quote:
Yes, this is Jesus' victory, not yours. Leave the credit where it is. It is called submission to the King.
My victory is IN Jesus. I submit to my lord friend, what about you?

Quote:
Anything and EVERYTHING is worthy of His name. He is my Creator.
Sin is worthy of Jesus Name? Why are you trying to skirt the issue. If you think anything less than complete victory over sin and death is worthy of Christs name, then i think you fail to realize the true power of the cross.



Quote:
Art thou lifting thyself up? Having haughty eyes and thoughts? Careful now.
Art thou? lol ... It was just a question friend. One worthy of consideration. A little introspection goes a long way.



Quote:
Again, what is with these questions? I got a better one for you. If your doctrine is complete Truth, and you have been given this by His
Power, prove it.
A deceitful generation requires a sign

Mat 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

Your heart/conscience should bare witness of these things, but your heart is hard like stone. God will give you a heart of flesh in due season.



Quote:
Really, I do not believe that statement. If you did, you would act a little more humble than you do
.

Humble? When i am called an heretic and am threatened with eternal torture and or annihilation for proclaiming what the spirit has given me? I bow to God and not to men and their vile machinations. Or would you have me cower and beg? I don't go in for that sort of thing thanks. Ill just proclaim this gospel of reconciliation with confidence, and expose the lie of eternal death and torture with joy. This is the real good news.



Quote:
Standing up? To whom?
Aren't you reading my posts? I am standing up to the established religious bourgeoisie ... The traditional and orthodox/fundamentalist teachers and hierarchy of organized Christianity. And everyone who defends them and their false religion and false doctrines here on this forum.


Quote:
Sounds like more lifting up of you again. What is with the me, me, me.
What ? Should i speak for you? Or someone else? I will only speak for myself thank you. You and fundamentalist think your sneaky insinuating that i am teaching a gospel of mine own self. If there were other personal pronouns i could use to refer to myself when speaking about what i believe and teach would that make you happy? Why dont you deal with my questions and statements instead of trying to cloud the issue by attacking the language i employ?

Quote:
I don't see this either. I see you being so indoctrinated by the seduction of an easy gospel message that plays to the egos of sinners, and weak women.
Right ... weak women? You mistake the promise of reconciliation with the doctrines of Jezebel and those doctrines which cause people to cower in fear and subject themselves to men based on that fear. Silly women, as it were, you lead into religious captivity because you play on the guilt that they have for their diverse lusts and they don't know any better to see your manipulation of them. Such teachings cause people to be in captivity. You see plenty of these little old women in baptist churches and the like that teach eternal damnation and they are very sanctimonious and bitter because they are not healed of their sins by the doctrines that are taught them but instead they are hardened by them and become contemptuous.



Quote:
Again, you keep lifting yourself up. What is with this?
The spirit of love lifts my up. By the spirit of love i overcome the trappings of false religions and doctrines of demons. I have no strength in myself, but it is the spirit of Christ that is my strength.

Quote:
Well, this can only be proven when that time comes. We shall see.

So be it....
Indeed, and we will all rejoice together and sing praises to God and we will worship him and rejoice when his judgments are in the earth, because thereby we shall all learn righteousness.

This was an extremely long post ... Please excuse any grammatical errors. I will try to edit it as best i can.

Amen and Selah ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-13-2009 at 12:16 AM..
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Old 10-13-2009, 12:14 AM
 
5,740 posts, read 4,591,177 times
Reputation: 4161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I share your grief. My Brother committed suicide as well. And he was my best friend ... They were not criminals for it, they were victims ... The lord will not reject them. No matter what sanctimonious men and women say and believe.
AMEN!!

And I'm so sorry for your loss, Ironmaw.
And for your loss, Mercy777.
I grieve along with you, both.

With much love,
sparrow
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Old 10-13-2009, 12:25 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,242,597 times
Reputation: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw
Will you quote the scripture that says faith was measured out for all mankind? I cannot remember a verse that says that. I remember a verse that says God is evident by the work of his creation, but a subconcious knowledge of Gods existence and belief in Christ are completely different things.

You will not accept it if it smacked you in the face...but here you go anyway...

I beseech you therefore brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye precent your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good , that acceptable and perfect will of God.

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Hebrews 12:1-3
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