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Old 10-11-2009, 05:14 PM
 
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My question is this ...

Have you ever known someone and loved them truly, either a friend or a family member, who was not a Christian and has died?
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Old 10-11-2009, 06:18 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,464,178 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
My question is this ...

Have you ever known someone and loved them truly, either a friend or a family member, who was not a Christian and has died?
Answer to yours, yes.

My question is: What difference does that make, really?
My next question is: Is our "feelings" supposed to dictate how we see God? That sounds like a god formed after man's own image.

If God wants to destroy most of HIS creation, then it is His choice alone. But see, He doesn't, so He sent His Son to reconcile those who believe. But ONLY those who believe and ALL that it entails. The rest,,,gone.
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Old 10-11-2009, 07:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Answer to yours, yes.

My question is: What difference does that make, really?
My next question is: Is our "feelings" supposed to dictate how we see God? That sounds like a god formed after man's own image.

If God wants to destroy most of HIS creation, then it is His choice alone. But see, He doesn't, so He sent His Son to reconcile those who believe. But ONLY those who believe and ALL that it entails. The rest,,,gone.
The difference it makes is the effect that the way you believe has on you, knowing they died without being Christian. Did you stop loving them after they died? Do you miss them, does the thought of them being tortured for ever bother you? Do you ever even think about it or do you just push it out of your mind? If they were alive and being tortured would it bother you any more?

The question is only to find out how many here on CD who believe in ET or in annihilation actually are burdened by their love for someone who may be suffering in hell even as we speak. And the question is also to try and understand how people who believe in ET and have lost loved ones who were not believers really feel about love to begin with.

I know for a fact i couldn't handle the personal torment and fear i had when i believed in ET over not only loved ones who have passed who did not believe but over all the countless souls who have.

When ever i read ... "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18) ... It didn't make any sense to me at all when i believed in ET. I thought there must have been something wrong with me.

And no, the way i feel about it is not why i believe the way i do now. I believed in ET for many many years while suffering from the thought of so many people being ceaselessly tortured. Though it did eventually cause my conscience to move me in the direction of seeking God for answers and salvation from such a terrible state of mind into which i had fallen. He then began to reveal to me slowly the answers i had been seeking and showing me the truth of his love for all people, and how it far surpasses mine own. He began showing me in the scriptures what i was unable to see for so many years due to the indoctrination i had received throughout my life. He opened my eyes and all the sudden the bible actually started making sense and the contradictions started being reconciled and i began to for the first time in so many years to truly feel the peace that surpasses all understanding and the joy and love of life for all people and for God most of all.

My question is to ascertain how you can live with yourself, knowing that you believe the way you do even though it goes against the love that you have for others. It seems to me you would more readily cast off your love for those who have passed and everyone else in the world who does not believe the way you do than to even consider an alternative to your own traditional interpretations of scripture. How you defend the doctrine of ET and or annihilation in spite of all the evidences showing that the scriptures can be interpreted in the light of Universal Reconciliation and in fact was originally interpreted that way by the vast majority of early Christian before the sixth century? I am simply trying to understand what manner of creature ET'ers and those that believe in Annihilation are? Because you are so foreign to me ... I was never able to be happy or have any peace of mind once i started asking questions and loosing people i loved who did not believe to death. I became quite caught up in anything that could take my mind of it ... Drugs, alcohol, sex, etc. ... I began sinning far more than i do now that i have come to understand UR, just trying to escape from my own torments.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-11-2009 at 07:53 PM..
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Old 10-11-2009, 10:16 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,649,143 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
My question is this ...

Have you ever known someone and loved them truly, either a friend or a family member, who was not a Christian and has died?
LABEL- URer...

That said.. I could not imagine living for ONE single moment knowing my loved ones are burning in hell...

I once was swimming in a river with my son. My son was 7... I was unable to swim to safety as the river pulled me away from shore. I almost lost my son... not to mention myself.. I realized then that if I lost my son... I would not want to live. If my son lost me knowing that I was not "christian" he would have to live with my "burning in hell"... neither of those was a pretty picture nor acceptable to me.. I called on God to do his will.. I almost gave up and just sank to the bottom of the river but I realized that my son needed me and I needed him. There was no realization of hell... I realized that there is no hell... just the absence of living. That in and of itself was scary...

I can say with certainty that there is no HELL... there is no eternal damnation. Christ paid for our sins and they are forever PAID. NOONE has to pay for their sins... Does that mean that you sin all you can because your sins are paid for? No because although all things are lawful, not all things are beneficial...(1 Cor. 6:12)

My Uncle died recently and at his funeral the pastor said he "believed that my uncle was saved" yet my gut feeling was that my uncle thought it was all hogwash... I had not seen anything to indicate that my uncle had been saved... It was simply that the pastor found it difficult to tell a bunch of people who loved my uncle that he was indeed burning in hell for eternity!

How does that equate to good news?

Good news would be that ALL are saved and go to heaven upon death... now that would be spectacular... I think we can all agree!
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Old 10-11-2009, 10:21 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,387,071 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
LABEL- URer...

That said.. I could not imagine living for ONE single moment knowing my loved ones are burning in hell...

I once was swimming in a river with my son. My son was 7... I was unable to swim to safety as the river pulled me away from shore. I almost lost my son... not to mention myself.. I realized then that if I lost my son... I would not want to live. If my son lost me knowing that I was not "christian" he would have to live with my "burning in hell"... neither of those was a pretty picture nor acceptable to me.. I called on God to do his will.. I almost gave up and just sank to the bottom of the river but I realized that my son needed me and I needed him. There was no realization of hell... I realized that there is no hell... just the absence of living. That in and of itself was scary...

I can say with certainty that there is no HELL... there is no eternal damnation. Christ paid for our sins and they are forever PAID. NOONE has to pay for their sins... Does that mean that you sin all you can because your sins are paid for? No because although all things are lawful, not all things are beneficial...(1 Cor. 6:12)

My Uncle died recently and at his funeral the pastor said he "believed that my uncle was saved" yet my gut feeling was that my uncle thought it was all hogwash... I had not seen anything to indicate that my uncle had been saved... It was simply that the pastor found it difficult to tell a bunch of people who loved my uncle that he was indeed burning in hell for eternity!

How does that equate to good news?

Good news would be that ALL are saved and go to heaven upon death... now that would be spectacular... I think we can all agree!
No, the vindictive and hateful and cruel and greedy who count themselves among believers would not be happy to find out that is true one bit. To them that is bad news.
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Old 10-11-2009, 10:49 PM
 
2,946 posts, read 4,869,875 times
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Could you imagine if you had had a child that died without believing the right thing..a 10,11, 12 yr old? To believe that the God that create them is watching them being tortured and burned alive forever, screaming out in agony and pain, begging for mercy? Think about the children that ET`ers think are there..screaming out at this very second. Some child that got hit on his bicycle and was killed, or some child that was killed while running out into the street, now begging for mercy from the God who created him, but receiving none. The reason why most Et`ers promote such a thing is because they don`t believe any of their children are going there. It` salways somebody else like hitler, or a rapist. They don`t think about the young people they try to throw in there. Think about your grandparents who never hurt a soul. Unbelievable that compassionate people with God given intelligence still believe such stuff.
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Old 10-11-2009, 10:51 PM
 
39,855 posts, read 26,610,889 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
Could you imagine if you had had a child that died without believing the right thing..a 10,11, 12 yr old? To believe that the God that create them is watching them being tortured and burned alive forever, screaming out in agony and pain, begging for mercy? Think about the children that ET`ers think are there..screaming out at this very second. Some child that got hit on his bicycle and was killed, or some child that was killed while running out into the street, now begging for mercy from the God who created him, but receiving none. The reason why most Et`ers promote such a thing is because they don`t believe any of their children are going there. It` salways somebody else like hitler, or a rapist. They don`t think about the young people they try to throw in there. Think about your grandparents who never hurt a soul. Unbelievable that compassionate people with God given intelligence still believe such stuff.
Amen, spm . . . still can't rep you.
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Old 10-11-2009, 10:58 PM
 
2,946 posts, read 4,869,875 times
Reputation: 1610
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
LABEL- URer...

That said.. I could not imagine living for ONE single moment knowing my loved ones are burning in hell...

I once was swimming in a river with my son. My son was 7... I was unable to swim to safety as the river pulled me away from shore. I almost lost my son... not to mention myself.. I realized then that if I lost my son... I would not want to live. If my son lost me knowing that I was not "christian" he would have to live with my "burning in hell"... neither of those was a pretty picture nor acceptable to me.. I called on God to do his will.. I almost gave up and just sank to the bottom of the river but I realized that my son needed me and I needed him. There was no realization of hell... I realized that there is no hell... just the absence of living. That in and of itself was scary...

I can say with certainty that there is no HELL... there is no eternal damnation. Christ paid for our sins and they are forever PAID. NOONE has to pay for their sins... Does that mean that you sin all you can because your sins are paid for? No because although all things are lawful, not all things are beneficial...(1 Cor. 6:12)

My Uncle died recently and at his funeral the pastor said he "believed that my uncle was saved" yet my gut feeling was that my uncle thought it was all hogwash... I had not seen anything to indicate that my uncle had been saved... It was simply that the pastor found it difficult to tell a bunch of people who loved my uncle that he was indeed burning in hell for eternity!

How does that equate to good news?

Good news would be that ALL are saved and go to heaven upon death... now that would be spectacular... I think we can all agree!
Isn`t it ironic that the same pastors that preach hellfire and brimstone and say it is only justice,clam up about God and his justice when they preside over a funeral. Then it is all about God`s love,mercy, and compassion. If it is true and just and they want everyone to believe it why don`t they say what they believe to be the truth at a funeral? Because they don`t want to sound unfeeling and uncompassionate? Even to them it is not compassionate but they hold God to a lesser standard? But on Sunday they scream it at the top of their lungs and talk about how loving God is.
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Old 10-11-2009, 11:00 PM
 
5,804 posts, read 4,774,842 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
Could you imagine if you had had a child that died without believing the right thing..a 10,11, 12 yr old? To believe that the God that create them is watching them being tortured and burned alive forever, screaming out in agony and pain, begging for mercy? Think about the children that ET`ers think are there..screaming out at this very second. Some child that got hit on his bicycle and was killed, or some child that was killed while running out into the street, now begging for mercy from the God who created him, but receiving none. The reason why most Et`ers promote such a thing is because they don`t believe any of their children are going there. It` salways somebody else like hitler, or a rapist. They don`t think about the young people they try to throw in there. Think about your grandparents who never hurt a soul. Unbelievable that compassionate people with God given intelligence still believe such stuff.
exactly.

I'm sure a lot of folks are Acts 16:31 folks.

Well... guess what?
Jesus commanded that we love our neighbor as ourselves.
If we love all as ourselves, then those neighbors are part of our "household".

Why would God command us to love...?
And why did he say that all the law and prophets hang on those two commandments of love?

Is it because, in fact, God IS love... just as He has told us that He is??
And He wishes us to drink Him in and KNOW Him?

Why else would the two commandments be to LOVE?

Let Him with ears... hear.
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Old 10-11-2009, 11:01 PM
 
Location: Rome, Georgia
2,706 posts, read 3,327,234 times
Reputation: 1911
Here is an interesting take on the idea of a Christian hell from one of Christianity's best apologists. I strongly recommend the full read, but here is a summary. Probably better suited to the nature of a benevolent God?

The Great Divorce - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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