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Old 10-12-2009, 12:35 PM
 
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are all our sins that we have been forgiven by the Blood of Christ still shown to us or, having been forgiven, are they are totally out of the book of deeds and when we appear before Christ no bad works are shown to us, just the good ones we will be rewarded for?
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Old 10-12-2009, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Indianapolis
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You are being judge every day before and the rest will be after death and no blood can "save" you or cleanse you. It's totally up to you if you want to accept the consequences of all your sins. You will know which ones have been forgiven and which ones haven't. It's a soul knowing. Some are harder than others.
In my beliefs, forgiving is forgetting and overcoming you own short comings and sorting through what caused the sin. When you own up to the sin, it's easier to self forgive. I've also been taught that the other party must also forgive you in order for both of you to progress.
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Old 10-12-2009, 02:39 PM
 
Location: A farm way out in the mountains
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
are all our sins that we have been forgiven by the Blood of Christ still shown to us or, having been forgiven, are they are totally out of the book of deeds and when we appear before Christ no bad works are shown to us, just the good ones we will be rewarded for?
Tricky. Matthew 25: 31-46 seems to suggest that deeds (good and bad) will be listed; but passages like Acts 10:43 and 1 John 2:12 seem to suggest something else. I'll be interested in hearing other people's take on this. I tend to see the scenario rather as the judge sitting with the charge sheet at the ready, but Jesus tapping him on the shoulder (so to speak) and saying "I'll vouch for this one - (s)he's one of mine". Rather a flippant image, perhaps, but perhaps it makes a kind of theological point.

If you want some heavier theology, try the English Bishop Tom Wright (a brilliant evangelical scholar):

Paul's view of the future (a tiny extract from one of Dr Wright's writings ...)

(a) The one true God will finally judge the whole world; on that day, some will be found guilty and others will be upheld (Rom. 2.1-16). God's vindication of these latter on the last day is his act of final 'justification' (Rom. 2.13). The word carries overtones of the lawcourt.

(b) But not only the lawcourt. Justification is part of Paul's picture of the family God promised (i.e. covenanted) to Abraham. When God, as judge, finds in favor of people on the last day, they are declared to be part of this family (Rom. 4; cf. Gal. 3). This is why lawcourt imagery is appropriate: the covenant was there, from Genesis onwards, so that through it God could deal with sin and death, could (in other words) put his creation to rights.

(c) This double declaration will take the form of an event. All God's people will receive resurrection bodies, to share the promised inheritance, the renewed creation (Rom. 8). This event, which from one point of view is their 'justification', is therefore from another their 'salvation': their rescue from the corruption of death, which for Paul is the result of sin. The final resurrection is the ultimate rescue which God promised from the beginning (Rom. 4).

2. Moving back from the future to the past, God's action in Jesus forms Paul's template for this final justification.

(a) Jesus has been faithful, obedient to God's saving purposes right up to death (Rom. 5.12-21; Phil. 2.6-9); God has now declared decisively that he is the Son of God, the Messiah, in whom Israel's destiny has been summed up (Rom. 1.3f.).

(b) Jesus' resurrection was, for Paul, the evidence that God really had dealt with sin on the cross (1 Cor. 15.12-19). In the death of Jesus God accomplished what had been promised to Abraham, and 'what the law could not do' (Rom. 8.3): for those who belong to the Messiah, there is 'no condemnation' (Rom. 8.1, 8.31-9).

(c) The event in which all this actually happened was, of course, the resurrection of the crucified Jesus.

3. Justification in the present is based on God's past accomplishment in Christ, and anticipates the future verdict. This present justification has exactly the same pattern.

(a) God vindicates in the present, in advance of the last day, all those who believe in Jesus as Messiah and Lord (Rom. 3.21-31; 4.13-25; 10.9-13). The lawcourt language indicates what is meant. 'Justification' itself is not God's act of changing the heart or character of the person; that is what Paul means by the 'call', which comes through the word and the Spirit. 'Justification' has a specific, and narrower, reference: it is God's declaration that the person is now in the right, which confers on them the status 'righteous'. (We may note that, since 'righteous' here, within the lawcourt metaphor, refers to 'status', not 'character', we correctly say that God's declaration makes the person 'righteous', i.e. in good standing.)

(b) This present declaration constitutes all believers as the single people, the one family, promised to Abraham (Gal. 2.14 - 3.29; Rom. 3.27 - 4.17), the people whose sins have been dealt with as part of the fulfilled promise of covenant renewal (Jer. 31.31-34). Membership in this family cannot be played off against forgiveness of sins: the two belong together.

(c) The event in the present which corresponds to Jesus' death and resurrection in the past, and the resurrection of all believers in the future, is baptism into Christ (Gal. 3.26-9; Rom. 6.2-11). Baptism is not, as some have supposed, a 'work' which one 'performs' to earn God's favour. It is, for Paul, the sacrament of God's free grace. Paul can speak of those who have believed and been baptised as already 'saved', albeit 'in hope' (Rom. 8.24).


Sorry: that's rather long, isn't it? Light version or heavy version: take your pick!
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Old 10-12-2009, 04:18 PM
Status: "Build the damn wall!" (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: The Haunted Mansion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
are all our sins that we have been forgiven by the Blood of Christ still shown to us or, having been forgiven, are they are totally out of the book of deeds and when we appear before Christ no bad works are shown to us, just the good ones we will be rewarded for?
That's my understanding.

1 Cor. 3

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
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Old 10-12-2009, 05:54 PM
 
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The Bema Seat judgment or judgment seat of Christ is for believers only.(1 Cor. 3:12-15; 2 Cor. 5:10; Romans 14:10) It is for the purpose of reward for works that are determined by Christ to be gold, silver, and precious stones. On the other hand, works that are determined by Christ to be wood, hay, and stubble are burned up and there is no reward for those. This Bema Seat judgment takes place in Heaven after the rapture of the church, while the Tribulation is occurring on the earth.

An entirely different judgment which is for Unbelievers only, is the Great White Throne judgment of Revelation 20:11-15. This judgment takes place at the end of the Millennium. The unbeliever is standing before Christ at this Great White Throne Judgment because he has rejected Christ as Savior, and so must appear before Christ the judge. The unbeliever is condemned to the eternal lake of fire not because of sin, as ALL sin was paid for by Christ on the Cross. This is universal reconciliation. But universal reconciliation is not universal salvation. Reconciliation means that sin has been removed as a barrier between man and God. But because the unbeliever has rejected Christ as Savior, reconciliation is not applyed to him. And therefore, he is being condemned on the basis of his works as mentioned in Revelation 20:11-15.

The reason the unbeliever is condemned for his works is because in rejecting the work of Christ on the Cross on his behalf, he is by default, whether he realizes it or not, depending on his own good works to save him. But the absolute and perfect righteousness of God can have NOTHING TO DO with the relative and imperfect righteousness of man.

Here is what God thinks about human righteousness. Isaiah 64:6 ''And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment. (actually used menstrual rags). Our human righteousness is repugnant to God. He must reject it. Since the unbeliever did not believe in Christ for salvation, the Holy Spirit never created a human spirit for that person, and God the Father never imputed either His very own eternal life or His own perfect righteousness to that person, and so God never pronounced that unbeliever to be justified, and so that unbeliever is standing entirely on his own human righteousness for salvation, and God must reject him and condemn him to the eternal lake of fire. GOD CANNOT COMPROMISE HIS PERFECT RIGHTEOUSNESS, and so must reject the unbeliever because the unbeliever rejected the one way that God could provide salvation without compromising who and what He is.

These are two very different judgments with two very different purposes.

1) The Bema Seat for the believer for reward.

2) The Great White Throne judgment of unbelievers for eternal condemnation.
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Old 10-13-2009, 12:15 AM
 
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I can't believe that I, as a psudo-perfectionist, could mangle the question so badly upon re-reading it hours later. Let me try again and then try to expand on some of the very good ideas put forth here:

Question: when Christians appear before the judgment seat of Christ are the "sins" they have committed before and after being saved,though forgiven by the Blood of Christ, still flashed before them or have all their sins been drowned in the ocean of God's mercy and "totally" blotted away, never to be seen again?

I see three types of acts in our human form: good, unselfish works--these will be rewarded; good, but selfish works--these will be burned up; finally, sins---these are deserving of eternal death but have been forgiven and the question becomes are they still part of our "rap sheet" or have they been totally blotted out of God's consciousness and out of the "books" talked about in Revelation 20:12, through the saving work of Jesus? I ask because I've done some things in my life I'm not particularly proud of, to put it mildly, and it has nothing to do with not wanting the world to see them; rather, it has to do with not wanting to be reminded of them when I come up for review before the Lord. I'd just as soon know scripturally that they are gone once they are forgiven. Isaiah 43:25 gives me great comfort that this is so:

Quote:
I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
The question is, was this written only for the Hebrews of old or for all children of God through the ages, and if the latter, then how can they be brought up at our judgment when God has forgotten them by virtue of His own word?
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Old 10-13-2009, 01:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I can't believe that I, as a psudo-perfectionist, could mangle the question so badly upon re-reading it hours later. Let me try again and then try to expand on some of the very good ideas put forth here:

Question: when Christians appear before the judgment seat of Christ are the "sins" they have committed before and after being saved,though forgiven by the Blood of Christ, still flashed before them or have all their sins been drowned in the ocean of God's mercy and "totally" blotted away, never to be seen again?

I see three types of acts in our human form: good, unselfish works--these will be rewarded; good, but selfish works--these will be burned up; finally, sins---these are deserving of eternal death but have been forgiven and the question becomes are they still part of our "rap sheet" or have they been totally blotted out of God's consciousness and out of the "books" talked about in Revelation 20:12, through the saving work of Jesus? I ask because I've done some things in my life I'm not particularly proud of, to put it mildly, and it has nothing to do with not wanting the world to see them; rather, it has to do with not wanting to be reminded of them when I come up for review before the Lord. I'd just as soon know scripturally that they are gone once they are forgiven. Isaiah 43:25 gives me great comfort that this is so:



The question is, was this written only for the Hebrews of old or for all children of God through the ages, and if the latter, then how can they be brought up at our judgment when God has forgotten them by virtue of His own word?
Sin is Not brought up at the Great White Throne judgment. Sin will never be mentioned. Unbelievers are condemned on the basis of their works, not sin. See post #5.
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Old 10-13-2009, 04:47 AM
 
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when we die, the saved go to be with the Lord , the Lost go into hell .

When Jesus returns,all the dead rise up out of the grave.
The Saved rise up, and stand before the Lord. the book of the lamb is opened and because they are forgiven all, they go up to meet the lord in the air and spend forever with the Lord.

The lost stand before the judge where the book of their life is opened. they are cast into the ever-burning flame and nothing new ever happens to them from that day on.
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Old 10-13-2009, 12:35 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
when we die, the saved go to be with the Lord , the Lost go into hell .

When Jesus returns,all the dead rise up out of the grave.
The Saved rise up, and stand before the Lord. the book of the lamb is opened and because they are forgiven all, they go up to meet the lord in the air and spend forever with the Lord.

The lost stand before the judge where the book of their life is opened. they are cast into the ever-burning flame and nothing new ever happens to them from that day on.
Yet Jesus came to save the lost.. so I guess he failed. (in your gospel that is)
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Old 10-13-2009, 02:19 PM
Status: "Build the damn wall!" (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: The Haunted Mansion
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yet Jesus came to save the lost.. so I guess he failed. (in your gospel that is)
Unfortunately, some reject Christ.
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