U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-14-2009, 02:31 PM
 
17,966 posts, read 12,883,708 times
Reputation: 990

Advertisements

That article by Matt Slick answered here:
Matthew 25:46 and Universalism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Here is a link to a short article concerning the erroneous teaching of Universalism.

Universalism | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

(be sure to go to the links in the article.)

And regarding Matthew 25:46 ''These go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.''

The same Greek word--aionios-- is used for eternal punishment and for eternal life.

Go to the following link and scroll down the page to see what the parallel commentaries say about Matthew 25:46.

Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-14-2009, 02:50 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,595,943 times
Reputation: 686
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
That article by Matt Slick answered here:
Matthew 25:46 and Universalism
Yes that is a good rebuttal to Matt Slick's CARM article.

In brief, Matt pulls out several strawman and knocks them down while claiming victory for eternal torture. He makes strawman claims against "universalists" that I and many other believers in universal reconcilliation haver never made.

The most obvious strawman Matt pulls is His claim that universalists say Matt 25:46 is talking about "aionios" life but only "non-aionios" punishment. That is a complete fabrication on Matt's part, and is really the crux of his article. Straw men are easy to knock down. Sorry, nice try, but it don't fly.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-14-2009, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,800,055 times
Reputation: 581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The punishment is not corrective. It is not for purposes of purification. The unbeliever is eternally separated from God because he has rejected the means of salvation that God has provided, and therefore remains spiritually dead. God must keep His holiness intact and free from compromise. He provided the one means of salvation that would not compromise His righteousness. Therefore, those who reject that offer of salvation cannot enter into the presence of God. If a person does not believe in Christ for salvation during his life on this earth, then his eternal destiny in the lake of fire has been decided.
But the punishment IS corrective - unless we ignore the Greek. The Greek word is KOLASIS and derived from Kolazo. If someone is ETERNALLY dead that means they don't have a spirit so how can one be ETERNALLY punished if they already dead? Additionally, if aionios means ETERNAL then that means the Punishment NEVER had a beginning. It would mean the punishment ALWAYS existed. How do you explain that?

Paul
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-14-2009, 05:16 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,249,738 times
Reputation: 808
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It is by God's sovereign decision that He gave man free will for the purpose of making a decision for, or against Christ. And it is by God's sovereign decision that He will not interfere with the free will decision of man in salvation. That is the very reason why God gave man volition. It is the most basic issue in the angelic conflict. The invisible spiritual warfare that is taking place in the heavenlies. And for man, the battlefield is in his soul. And his volition regarding salvation is the issue. God does not interfere with man's choice regarding salvation.

I suggest that you do some serious reseach on this spiritual warfare and how it relates to man and to the issue man's free will. And why God created man in the first place. Then perhaps you'll understand why God doesn't overrule man's volition in the issue of salvation.
Where are you getting your info on this supposed angelic spiritual warfare because you certainly aren't getting it from the bible. I also suggest you do a little study on the Sovereignty of God....He is in control of EVERYTHING...and that everything includes who comes to Him and who doesn't. He is the Potter and we are the clay....He molds us exactly the way He wants us and we do, in the life, exactly what He wants us to do.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-14-2009, 05:17 PM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,604,628 times
Reputation: 181
An example illustrating where Matt Slick's "logic" falls apart.
  • Isaiah 32:12 Beat your breasts for the pleasant fields, for the fruitful vines 13 and for the land of my people, a land overgrown with thorns and briers-- yes, mourn for all houses of merriment and for this city of revelry. 14 The fortress will be abandoned, the noisy city deserted; citadel and watchtower will become a wasteland forever [LXX ewV tou aiwnoV], the delight of donkeys, a pasture for flocks, 15 till the Spirit is poured upon us from on high, and the desert becomes a fertile field, and the fertile field seems like a forest. 16 Justice will dwell in the desert and righteousness live in the fertile field. 17 The fruit of righteousness will be peace; the effect of righteousness will be quietness and confidence forever [LXX ewV tou aiwnoV]
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-14-2009, 09:25 PM
 
21,589 posts, read 16,583,564 times
Reputation: 8533
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
That article by Matt Slick answered here:
Matthew 25:46 and Universalism
Of course the eons end. Eons, ages, are dispensations. The last dispensation in human history is the Millennium. After the Millennium ends, or shortly thereafter (Revelation 20:7), time ends and the eternal state continues on without the existence of time. It is after the Millennium ends that Satan is cast into the eternal lake of fire.

It is after the eons end that Satan and unbelieving humanity are thrown into the lake of fire to begin their eternal sentence in that place (Revelation 20:7-15). No more eons, no more ages, no more dispensations; just eternity.

Nevertheless, in context, the word aionios is used for eternity. And most Bible commentators recognize this. Refer to the link I provided for examples.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-14-2009, 10:27 PM
 
5,802 posts, read 4,771,871 times
Reputation: 4301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
This is exactly what the Lord was just impressing on me a few minutes ago in another thread.
That's awesome. I love when that sort of thing happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
But you have such a way with words, sparrow. The way you put things always adds depth to my understanding and encourages me.
wow, thanks friend!.. I tend to think I'm uh...rambly. lol...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-14-2009, 11:06 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,586 posts, read 5,476,086 times
Reputation: 578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Of course the eons end. Eons, ages, are dispensations. The last dispensation in human history is the Millennium. After the Millennium ends, or shortly thereafter (Revelation 20:7), time ends and the eternal state continues on without the existence of time. It is after the Millennium ends that Satan is cast into the eternal lake of fire.

It is after the eons end that Satan and unbelieving humanity are thrown into the lake of fire to begin their eternal sentence in that place (Revelation 20:7-15). No more eons, no more ages, no more dispensations; just eternity.

Nevertheless, in context, the word aionios is used for eternity. And most Bible commentators recognize this. Refer to the link I provided for examples.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-14-2009, 11:37 PM
 
21,589 posts, read 16,583,564 times
Reputation: 8533
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
Where are you getting your info on this supposed angelic spiritual warfare because you certainly aren't getting it from the bible.


Spiritual Warfare, The Angelic Conflict Straight from the Bible


Ephesians 6:11 Put on the full armor of God, that you may be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12) For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. 16) In addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinquish all the flaming missiles of the evil one.

1 Peter 5:8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls about like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 9) But resist him, firm in your faith...

Satans domain: Job 1:7; 1 Peter 5:8

Satan as ruler of this world: John 12:31; 14:31; 16:11

Satan as prince of the power of the air: Eph 2:2

Satan is the father of unbelievers: John 8:44

Satan influences rulers: 1 Chronicles 21:1

Satan incites revolution: Revelation 20:7-10.

Revelation 12:7 AND THERE WAS WAR IN HEAVEN, MICHAEL AND HIS ANGELS WAGING WAR WITH THE DRAGON. and the dragon and his angels waged war, 8) and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9) And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-15-2009, 01:52 AM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,586 posts, read 5,476,086 times
Reputation: 578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Spiritual Warfare, The Angelic Conflict Straight from the Bible


Ephesians 6:11 Put on the full armor of God, that you may be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12) For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. 16) In addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinquish all the flaming missiles of the evil one.

1 Peter 5:8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls about like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 9) But resist him, firm in your faith...

Satans domain: Job 1:7; 1 Peter 5:8

Satan as ruler of this world: John 12:31; 14:31; 16:11

Satan as prince of the power of the air: Eph 2:2

Satan is the father of unbelievers: John 8:44

Satan influences rulers: 1 Chronicles 21:1

Satan incites revolution: Revelation 20:7-10.

Revelation 12:7 AND THERE WAS WAR IN HEAVEN, MICHAEL AND HIS ANGELS WAGING WAR WITH THE DRAGON. and the dragon and his angels waged war, 8) and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9) And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
You can tell when people don't read there bibles.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:35 AM.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. | Please obey Forum Rules | Terms of Use and Privacy Policy

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top