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Old 10-15-2009, 07:36 AM
 
12,287 posts, read 5,883,215 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
But the punishment IS corrective - unless we ignore the Greek. The Greek word is KOLASIS and derived from Kolazo. If someone is ETERNALLY dead that means they don't have a spirit so how can one be ETERNALLY punished if they already dead? Additionally, if aionios means ETERNAL then that means the Punishment NEVER had a beginning. It would mean the punishment ALWAYS existed. How do you explain that?

Paul
A person is born into this world physically alive but spiritually dead--no human spirit--therefore no relationship with God in time. Yet, as stated, he is still physicaly alive. He has a body and a soul.

Now when this person physically dies without believing in Christ for salvation, his body goes into the grave, and his soul goes into torments--the compartment in Hades where unbelieving humanity goes after death. This is a temporary place. After the Millennium, unsaved humanity will be resurrected into immortal bodies that are designed for the lake of fire where they will spend eternity. The spiritual death--separation from God in time, is reclassified as the second death--separation from God for all eternity.

From the time of their physical death, their eternal separation from God is finalized, and their eternal punishment begins first in Hades--Torments, then in the lake of fire. From that point on, they are eternally separated from God.

From God's viewpoint, He has always known from eternity past who would and who wouldn't believe in Christ for salvation. And so in the mind of God, those who He knew would believe in Christ have always been foreknown--a category of divine knowledge concerned with believers only. ''For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,...and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.'' (Romans 8:29-30) And this all happened because God KNEW who would and who wouldn't make the decision to believe in Christ. And so in the mind of God, Those who He knew would believe in Christ for salvation have always been distinguished from those who wouldn't.

This is not double predestination. Only those who believe in Christ are predestined. Those who reject Christ, have made a decision to remain in a state of condemnation.
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:53 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,414,868 times
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
A person is born into this world physically alive but spiritually dead--no human spirit--therefore no relationship with God in time. Yet, as stated, he is still physicaly alive. He has a body and a soul.
It's clear in Genesis that a spirit was breathed into their bodies creating a living soul... the way you are using the word soul is a concept developed by pagans that the soul was the spirit but God is a living spirit and your concept of soul excludes that man only became a living soul when "life" or spirit was breathed into the flesh.

Quote:
Now when this person physically dies without believing in Christ for salvation, his body goes into the grave, and his soul goes into torments--the compartment in Hades where unbelieving humanity goes after death. This is a temporary place. After the Millennium, unsaved humanity will be resurrected into immortal bodies that are designed for the lake of fire where they will spend eternity. The spiritual death--separation from God in time, is reclassified as the second death--separation from God for all eternity.
Gen. 1:20: "And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life" (The word "life" here is nephesh...soul).


So animals also have a "soul" and humans that don't come to Christ are animals?

If a person is separated from God by not having a spirit then dies without believing in Christ... then their "life/soul" are separated forever after the second death.... that makes no sense!!!


If soul is translated as life.. then after death you have no soul it is the spirit, the breath of God that remains..



In your mind... what separates humans from animals?



Quote:
From the time of their physical death, their eternal separation from God is finalized, and their eternal punishment begins first in Hades--Torments, then in the lake of fire. From that point on, they are eternally separated from God.
So in your view punishment begins in a holding place then continues in the lake of fire? So basically you are sentenced before the trial.. is that right? If Hades was a holding place like jail.. then you get sentenced to death-row (lake of fire) that might make sense but you are saying that they are tortured/punished in hades and further punished in the lake of fire.. That doesn't even seem just from the human perspective let alone from the character of God's judgment.

Quote:
From God's viewpoint, He has always known from eternity past who would and who wouldn't believe in Christ for salvation. And so in the mind of God, those who He knew would believe in Christ have always been foreknown--a category of divine knowledge concerned with believers only. ''For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,...and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.'' (Romans 8:29-30) And this all happened because God KNEW who would and who wouldn't make the decision to believe in Christ. And so in the mind of God, Those who He knew would believe in Christ for salvation have always been distinguished from those who wouldn't.
Who did God foreknow? Psalm 139:16 states that God forknew all mankind because he made them.. therefore God "foreknew" all mankind! There is no distinguishment of believer from unbeliever in predestination. Predestination is that all are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. ALL!

Quote:
This is not double predestination. Only those who believe in Christ are predestined. Those who reject Christ, have made a decision to remain in a state of condemnation.
Again you are separating believers from unbelievers when there is no cause for that.

Ecclesiastes 11:5 Just as you do not know the path of the wind and how bones are formed in the womb of the pregnant woman, so you do not know the activity of God who makes all things.

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Old 10-15-2009, 10:49 AM
 
12,287 posts, read 5,883,215 times
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
It's clear in Genesis that a spirit was breathed into their bodies creating a living soul... the way you are using the word soul is a concept developed by pagans that the soul was the spirit but God is a living spirit and your concept of soul excludes that man only became a living soul when "life" or spirit was breathed into the flesh.
Adam was created perfect, with body, soul, and human spirit. Then he sinned and died spiritually. Thereafter, everyone is born spiritually dead--without a human spirit.


Quote:
Who did God foreknow? Psalm 139:16 states that God forknew all mankind because he made them.. therefore God "foreknew" all mankind! There is no distinguishment of believer from unbeliever in predestination. Predestination is that all are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. ALL!
God's omniscience is His knowledge concerning all things. God's foreknowledge concerns believers only. Psalm 139:16 is not talking about God's foreknowledge, it is addressing His omniscience. Romans 8:29 is specifically addressing God's foreknowledge concerning believers.

Quote:
Again you are separating believers from unbelievers when there is no cause for that.
It is God who separates believers from unbelievers and there is EVERY cause for that.
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