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Old 10-15-2009, 09:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothylogan3 View Post
These are just two different aspects of our salvation. You can not ask a question like this, not at all. It's like asking which comes 1st land or water. I know that is not a good example, but my point is you are asking which comes first between two aspects of our faith that totally coexist. Neither. One is an on going process : repentence. The other is a statement of faith, more of a proclaimation of who we are in Christ, from the moment we give ourself to Him. However again here the actuall change is an ever on going process while we are in this life. So the two are not a this starts first and then that, no. I dont see how you can ask that question.
I agree but I can ask very easily, personally I believe repentance comes first and I see it in scripture clear as day but I wouldn't be dogmatic about it
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:43 AM
 
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I hear you fundamental, and I say yes and no to what your saying there. For me repentence is not just asking for forgiveness and receiving it, but a process of walking away from the old me and walking towards Him. The repentence means a change from in a course of direction. Hence everyday I am having to change something in me. Everyday I am needing to repent for flaws and sins I commit. We are not perfect. Hence repentence is an ever on going process to me. I think the meaning of the word repentence in greek is very telling in this regard. But that is my humble opinion, and I hear you
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Old 10-15-2009, 11:04 AM
 
Location: RV Park
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I'll maintain that something in us has to change in order for us to repent. A change of heart, a change of mind, soul, spirit, whatever you call it.

So the question of which comes first - regeneration or repentance - must ask if our stance must to be modified in order to desire His ways instead of our own. I'll say absolutely. "Regeneration" may be too strong a word for you, but I believe scripture gives enough evidence that the "change of heart" is God-given.
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Old 10-15-2009, 11:21 AM
 
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But also with change, each and everyday we have to battle our flesh to be subjected to His will. There is alot in our faith we do without a heart conviction and change. Those are the times we act filled with doubts. A great storm will hit us. And we sometimes loose focus. It happens. But the lord, by His grace and strength, lifts us up and carries us and puts us on our feet, inspite of our unbelieving hearts. And makes us stronger. We grow in Him. We change. Personally I am always changing. Growing from one degree of glory to another.
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Old 10-15-2009, 11:50 AM
 
20,292 posts, read 15,633,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
I'll maintain that something in us has to change in order for us to repent. A change of heart, a change of mind, soul, spirit, whatever you call it.

So the question of which comes first - regeneration or repentance - must ask if our stance must to be modified in order to desire His ways instead of our own. I'll say absolutely. "Regeneration" may be too strong a word for you, but I believe scripture gives enough evidence that the "change of heart" is God-given.
Regeneration is the very speciflc action of the Holy Spirit creating a human spirit to which God the Father imputes both His eternal life and His perfect righteousness. This occurs after a person has had a change of mind (repentence) concerning Christ. How does God draw man to Him? He draws man to Him through the Gospel. ''Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. (Romans 10:17) The convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit is involved here. John 16:8 ''And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; 9) concernng sin, because they do not believe in Me;'' When a person hears and understands the Gospel, and rejects it, they are convicted ''because they do not believe in Me.'' The sin of unbelief.

At some point in time after hearing the Gospel, a person may or may not have a change of mind about Christ. After learning the facts of what Christ has done for us, a person will, strictly on the basis of his own volition, make a decision either for or against Christ. All God does is to present the information by which you may make an informed decision. What you do with that information is strictly up to you. God does not influence your decision in any way. Again, He simply provides the Gospel information to you, and you must then make a choice. The Holy Spirit making the Gospel understandable to the unbeliever (ministry of Common grace) is not any part of regeneration. The Holy Spirit simply makes it possible for you to arrive at the point where you can be regenerated, IF you decide to believe in Christ.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:56 PM
 
7,788 posts, read 10,443,690 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
At some point in time after hearing the Gospel...a person will, strictly on the basis of his own volition, make a decision either for or against Christ.

God does not influence your decision in any way.
Oh, June's not so sure about ^ that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555

Again, He simply provides the Gospel information to you, and you must then make a choice. The Holy Spirit making the Gospel understandable to the unbeliever (ministry of Common grace) is not any part of regeneration. The Holy Spirit simply makes it possible for you to arrive at the point where you can be regenerated, IF you decide to believe in Christ.
As the saying goes, no two people can ever have the same experience.


Take gentle care.
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Old 10-15-2009, 01:05 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
I'll maintain that something in us has to change in order for us to repent. A change of heart, a change of mind, soul, spirit, whatever you call it.

So the question of which comes first - regeneration or repentance - must ask if our stance must to be modified in order to desire His ways instead of our own. I'll say absolutely. "Regeneration" may be too strong a word for you, but I believe scripture gives enough evidence that the "change of heart" is God-given.
Ps 53:2 God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there is anyone who understands,
Who seeks after God.
Every one of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

It would stand to reason that if no one seeks God...God has to make the first move. Thank you God for that
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Old 10-15-2009, 01:09 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,137 posts, read 19,958,111 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
I'll maintain that something in us has to change in order for us to repent. A change of heart, a change of mind, soul, spirit, whatever you call it.

So the question of which comes first - regeneration or repentance - must ask if our stance must to be modified in order to desire His ways instead of our own. I'll say absolutely. "Regeneration" may be too strong a word for you, but I believe scripture gives enough evidence that the "change of heart" is God-given.
I agree
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Old 10-15-2009, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,383,615 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Regeneration is the very speciflc action of the Holy Spirit creating a human spirit to which God the Father imputes both His eternal life and His perfect righteousness. This occurs after a person has had a change of mind (repentence) concerning Christ. How does God draw man to Him? He draws man to Him through the Gospel. ''Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. (Romans 10:17) The convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit is involved here. John 16:8 ''And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; 9) concernng sin, because they do not believe in Me;'' When a person hears and understands the Gospel, and rejects it, they are convicted ''because they do not believe in Me.'' The sin of unbelief.
The problem is you are taking a verse in Romans 10 that is after having explained that faith is after, righteousness, which is after circumcision of the heart or a change of the heart.

Romans 2:29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

So while you are a sinner, the spirit (which you say unbelievers don't have) works on your heart. Then- you are ready to believe.

Romans 4:9-11 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.

Romans 5:6-8You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.


Quote:
At some point in time after hearing the Gospel, a person may or may not have a change of mind about Christ. After learning the facts of what Christ has done for us, a person will, strictly on the basis of his own volition, make a decision either for or against Christ. All God does is to present the information by which you may make an informed decision. What you do with that information is strictly up to you. God does not influence your decision in any way. Again, He simply provides the Gospel information to you, and you must then make a choice. The Holy Spirit making the Gospel understandable to the unbeliever (ministry of Common grace) is not any part of regeneration. The Holy Spirit simply makes it possible for you to arrive at the point where you can be regenerated, IF you decide to believe in Christ.
As we see in the above scripture I posted... Righteousness is credited before circumcision (Abraham-type circumcision or circumcision of the heart) and it is God who circumcised the heart as shown in Deut. 30:6-
The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

You say it is the belief in Christ that creates a "point" where you can be regenerated but scripture clearly says that you cannot believe in God (or Christ for that matter) unless you have had a circumcision of the heart which again.. ONLY God can accomplish.
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Old 10-15-2009, 04:03 PM
 
20,292 posts, read 15,633,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
The problem is you are taking a verse in Romans 10 that is after having explained that faith is after, righteousness, which is after circumcision of the heart or a change of the heart.

Romans 2:29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

So while you are a sinner, the spirit (which you say unbelievers don't have) works on your heart. Then- you are ready to believe.
Learn to distinquish between God the Holy Spirit and the human spirit.
And as I have already said, The Holy Spirit makes the Gospel understandable to the hearer of the Gospel.

Quote:
Romans 4:9-11 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abrahamís faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.

Romans 5:6-8You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.


As we see in the above scripture I posted... Righteousness is credited before circumcision (Abraham-type circumcision or circumcision of the heart) and it is God who circumcised the heart as shown in Deut. 30:6-
The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.



Once you make the decision to believe in Christ after you have heard and understood the Gospel which the Holy Spirit made understandable to you, God does some forty things for you at the point of salvation. Among those things, is that He regenerates you. ( You are said to be born again.) Again, this means that the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit to which God the Father imputes His eternal life and His perfect righteousness. When God looks at the believer, He see's His righteousness in the believer and pronounces him justified.

So, to say it again, once you have heard and understood the Gospel and believe it, then, as a result of changing your mind about Christ and believing in Him for salvation, regeneration occurs at that exact same moment of belief in Christ.

Also, the Holy Spirit enters the church age believer into union with Christ. This is the baptism of the Holy Spirit and results in the believer being positionally sanctified. Thus, the circumcision by the Spirit.

None of this occurs until the person who has heard the Gospel makes the decision to believe in Christ.


Quote:
Quote:
You say it is the belief in Christ that creates a "point" where you can be regenerated but scripture clearly says that you cannot believe in God (or Christ for that matter) unless you have had a circumcision of the heart which again.. ONLY God can accomplish.
Circumcision of the heart occurs at salvation when you are positionally sanctified through the baptism of the Holy Spirit which places you into union with Christ.

Then the believer must make continual decisions to learn and apply the word of God to his life so that he can become experientially sanctified. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. It's an individual choice that each believer must make.

Then, at the point of the resurrection of the believer, he is ultimately sanctified.

So sanctification is in three steps. And it all begins with the free will, uncoerced personal choice the individual who has heard the Gospel.

Again, circumcision of the heart occurs at salvation, and not before.

And also, the point of Romans is that the law is set aside for the church through faith in Christ who fulfilled the law.

Circumcision of the flesh for a Jew in the age of Israel was only meaningful if the Jew was a believing Jew. If the Jewish male did not believe in Christ, his circumcision of the flesh was meaningless.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Regenerated--John 13:10; 1 Cor. 6:11; Tit. 3:5
a) Born again- -John 3:7; 1 Peter 1:23
b) Children of God--Gal. 3:26-29
c) Sons of God--John 1:12; 2 cor. 6:18; 1 John 3:2
d) A new creation--2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15; Eph. 2:10
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