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Old 10-15-2009, 05:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
Oh, June's not so sure about ^ that!



As the saying goes, no two people can ever have the same experience.


Take gentle care.
I'll rephrase that. God does not make you believe in Christ if you don't want to believe.
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Old 10-15-2009, 05:16 PM
 
Location: East Coast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I'll rephrase that. God does not make you believe in Christ if you don't want to believe.
Try telling Saul of Tarsus that . Do you really think Saul at his appointed time , could have dusted himself down and said you know what God , this Jesus business is not for me ?.
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Old 10-15-2009, 05:22 PM
 
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Paul was not forced to believe...

read the story again, Jesus asked him a question.
The act of revelation came to Paul, but he never was forced to believe....never...no one is forced to believe...
Jesus stands at the door and knocks, if you open that door you invite the lord in....

Paul received a revelation from Jesus after Jesus was in heaven.
This lead to the conversion of Paul.
But this was a normal conversion, not brainwashing or a form of mind control.
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Old 10-15-2009, 06:31 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,475 posts, read 20,192,710 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Paul was not forced to believe...

read the story again, Jesus asked him a question.
The act of revelation came to Paul, but he never was forced to believe....never...no one is forced to believe...
Jesus stands at the door and knocks, if you open that door you invite the lord in....

Paul received a revelation from Jesus after Jesus was in heaven.
This lead to the conversion of Paul.
But this was a normal conversion, not brainwashing or a form of mind control.
So you think it was just a chance meeting ?So Jesus was just blinding passers by until someone believed ?

Alan this was an appointment made by God Himself

But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother's womb, and called me through his grace.Galatians 1:15
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Old 10-15-2009, 07:03 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,505,775 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
So you think it was just a chance meeting ?So Jesus was just blinding passers by until someone believed ?

Alan this was an appointment made by God Himself

But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother's womb, and called me through his grace.Galatians 1:15
The call of God for people to believe in His Son is never an accident.

The Bible builds on this idea when it spoke of how he stands at the door and knocks.
He does not say that the Lord hears our calls then goes and knocks on our door later.

So the initiative is always the Lords....same with Paul's conversion, same with my own.


As for the idea that we are singled out even at our birth?
This too is something I have tried hard to get people to understand and believe.
It's connected to the whole pro/Anti- freewill/Calvin debate.
But basically they way it is is this:

Before God made the world, (or even the creation), he already knew , already saw, already was there at the moment I became a believer.

This means that while from my point of view I had total free will to believe, from God's point of view there was never any doubt in the question at all...

Does God force anyone to believe?
Nope!
God is a gentleman he does not force us to love him.

This is explained in the story told when Jesus cried over the city, and how he said he would have wanted to gather the people like a hen gathers her chicks,,,but they "would not".

Notice Jesus does not say they "could not"
Had Jesus said that the city "could not" then we would have a situation where there was no free will and that we are either "good Robots" or bad robots....

Lets sum it all up!

So the story of the conversion of Paul is very dramatic, (It is in the bible for a reason after all) but the same basic rules still apply.
God takes the first step to us and calls us.
We have free will, and answer his calling to our hearts to believe.

God does not force us to believe, but because of his timeless nature He has always been alble to be present with the believer, at the moment of his or her conversion.even from before there was created "time" itself.

Known from the beginning are all the people who would be his and who were the barren ground that would not take the seed
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Old 10-15-2009, 07:20 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,475 posts, read 20,192,710 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
The call of God for people to believe in His Son is never an accident.

The Bible builds on this idea when it spoke of how he stands at the door and knocks.
He does not say that the Lord hears our calls then goes and knocks on our door later.

So the initiative is always the Lords....same with Paul's conversion, same with my own.


As for the idea that we are singled out even at our birth?
This too is something I have tried hard to get people to understand and believe.
It's connected to the whole pro/Anti- freewill/Calvin debate.
But basically they way it is is this:

Before God made the world, (or even the creation), he already knew , already saw, already was there at the moment I became a believer.

This means that while from my point of view I had total free will to believe, from God's point of view there was never any doubt in the question at all...

Does God force anyone to believe?
Nope!
God is a gentleman he does not force us to love him.

This is explained in the story told when Jesus cried over the city, and how he said he would have wanted to gather the people like a hen gathers her chicks,,,but they "would not".

Notice Jesus does not say they "could not"
Had Jesus said that the city "could not" then we would have a situation where there was no free will and that we are either "good Robots" or bad robots....

Lets sum it all up!
So the story of the conversion of Paul is very dramatic, (It is in the bible for a reason after all) but the same basic rules still apply.
God takes the first step to us and calls us.
We have free will, and answer his calling to our hearts to believe.

God does not force us to believe, but because of his timeless nature He has always been alble to be present with the believer, at the moment of his or her conversion.even from before there was created "time" itself.

Known from the beginning are all the people who would be his and who were the barren ground that would not take the seed
So you think there was a chance Saul could have used is freewill at that moment prior to being beamed over by the Light and said no i don't believe, you are not the Messiah ?.

There is a divine appointed time for all of us to believe .
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Old 10-15-2009, 07:36 PM
 
20,448 posts, read 15,831,505 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
So you think there was a chance Saul could have used is freewill at that moment prior to being beamed over by the Light and said no i don't believe, you are not the Messiah ?.

There is a divine appointed time for all of us to believe .
God knew from eternity past that Saul would believe in Jesus when meeting the resurrected Christ on the Damascus road. That did not negate Sauls free will. From his point of view, he had to make the decision to believe or not to believe in Christ when the moment came.

Until and unless you understand that it is by the sovereignty of God that human free will exists, and that by God's own decision, He will not interfere with man's choice to believe or not to believe, you will continue to be confused about God and His plan for man.
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Old 10-15-2009, 07:42 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,475 posts, read 20,192,710 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God knew from eternity past that Saul would believe in Jesus when meeting the resurrected Christ on the Damascus road. That did not negate Sauls free will. From his point of view, he had to make the decision to believe or not to believe in Christ when the moment came.

Until and unless you understand that it is by the sovereignty of God that human free will exists, and that by God's own decision, He will not interfere with man's choice to believe or not to believe, you will continue to be confused about God and His plan for man.
Well the fall of man proved that if a man even did have the free will he thinks he has , he does not have the capacity within himself to choose correctly. This is why the word tells us He chose us and not the other way round.left to our own will we are done.
The trouble with our will power is it has no power at all .
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Old 10-15-2009, 11:47 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,446,487 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Learn to distinquish between God the Holy Spirit and the human spirit.
And as I have already said, The Holy Spirit makes the Gospel understandable to the hearer of the Gospel.
.... you say only Christians have a spirit... and it is God that gives them the spirit at salvation or just before.. so I guess you are the one confusing the two spirits...


Quote:
Once you make the decision to believe in Christ after you have heard and understood the Gospel which the Holy Spirit made understandable to you, God does some forty things for you at the point of salvation. Among those things, is that He regenerates you. ( You are said to be born again.) Again, this means that the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit to which God the Father imputes His eternal life and His perfect righteousness. When God looks at the believer, He see's His righteousness in the believer and pronounces him justified.
Hogwash... You are just paraphasing others... forty things indeed.. who makes this up anyway?
I showed you that Abraham was credited with righteousness before he was circumcised and God circumcises the heart before not after one is counted as righteous.. we are counted righteous as in saved before we can believe in God or Jesus.

forty things indeed.


Quote:
So, to say it again, once you have heard and understood the Gospel and believe it, then, as a result of changing your mind about Christ and believing in Him for salvation, regeneration occurs at that exact same moment of belief in Christ.
But if you don't hear and understand and believe, change your mind and again believing then you can't be regenerated?
So your regeneration is conditional on what you do ... not what God does? So you are speaking contrary to the teachings of the bible.

Quote:
Also, the Holy Spirit enters the church age believer into union with Christ. This is the baptism of the Holy Spirit and results in the believer being positionally sanctified. Thus, the circumcision by the Spirit.

None of this occurs until the person who has heard the Gospel makes the decision to believe in Christ.
Just those few verses I posted make what you say a contradiction. How can you not see that?

Quote:
Circumcision of the heart occurs at salvation when you are positionally sanctified through the baptism of the Holy Spirit which places you into union with Christ.
You are made righteous (saved) before the circumcision... that is what the scripture says.

Quote:
Then the believer must make continual decisions to learn and apply the word of God to his life so that he can become experientially sanctified. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. It's an individual choice that each believer must make.
No those who are saved do not wish to sin... it is not fun anymore. The sanctification is appreciated. You make it sound like bootcamp.

Quote:
Then, at the point of the resurrection of the believer, he is ultimately sanctified.

So sanctification is in three steps. And it all begins with the free will, uncoerced personal choice the individual who has heard the Gospel.
Again God draws men to him.. there is no "uncoerced personal choice." If you are not coerced (drawn) to God there is no hope for you coming to him.
Quote:
Again, circumcision of the heart occurs at salvation, and not before.

And also, the point of Romans is that the law is set aside for the church through faith in Christ who fulfilled the law.

Circumcision of the flesh for a Jew in the age of Israel was only meaningful if the Jew was a believing Jew. If the Jewish male did not believe in Christ, his circumcision of the flesh was meaningless.
Have you read Romans? or the verses on circumcision?
Quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Regenerated--John 13:10; 1 Cor. 6:11; Tit. 3:5
a) Born again- -John 3:7; 1 Peter 1:23
b) Children of God--Gal. 3:26-29
c) Sons of God--John 1:12; 2 cor. 6:18; 1 John 3:2
d) A new creation--2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15; Eph. 2:10
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

SAVED BY REGENERATION implies one after the other not at the same time... what version are you reading? you wash a car..is it simultaneously washed and clean? or do you wash it THEN it's clean?

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

you can do nothing for salvation without God FIRST causing it.
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Old 10-16-2009, 09:37 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,544 posts, read 11,621,314 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Well the fall of man proved that if a man even did have the free will he thinks he has , he does not have the capacity within himself to choose correctly. This is why the word tells us He chose us and not the other way round.left to our own will we are done.
The trouble with our will power is it has no power at all .
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37)

Pretty strong language to support sovereignty.
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