U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-15-2009, 10:02 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,389,248 times
Reputation: 1690

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Amen Miss Blue and Pleroo!

The whole ET/UR debate is fundamental to our whole purpose here. God is love, and we are to be made into His image, which is LOVE. We are to become as loving as God is! If you hold ET to be true, you will be limiting God, limiting yourself, and limiting love.

This idea that some beings will be tortured for eternity is a huge stumbling block in trying to figure out how love works. Its only when you realize that God will not let anyone be tortured for an eternity that you can then begin to understand this thing called love.

God is love, love never fails and love covers all wrongs. Love is the most powerful force in the universe, and we will be made in that image of Love eventually.

Peace out.
I would second that Amen! I was thinking the same thing as I read June's Long-winded (and wise) post . That said it IS about the character of God. There is nothing more to Christianity than living the way Christ lived which was NOT to tell people that if they don't believe they will burn for eternity... Really that says more about the person who believes it.

UR- God loves everyone and tortures none... we torture ourselves.
ET/AN- God loves everyone..but will torture you if you don't love him back.

Character of God=LOVE
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-15-2009, 12:31 PM
 
7,788 posts, read 10,449,066 times
Reputation: 3392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Hi June,

I don't post a great deal so you probably don't "know" me but I thought I'd stick my nose in here anyway. First of all, nice to "meet" you.
June: Waving "hello" to Pleroo!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo

As a once staunch believer in ET, I think that the debate between ET/UR is all about following Jesus. At the heart of it, the debate is not about where people go after physical death but centers on the character of God
Tha's true. --June no doubt knew that the underlying essentials involved in the debate go to the heart of defining the character of God, but it would appear that even June, herself, 'lost' that aspect in her getting caught up in the 'debate' about the 'debate!' --Thank you for pointing that out/reminding her once again!


Take gentle underlying care.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-15-2009, 01:00 PM
 
2,945 posts, read 4,772,736 times
Reputation: 1603
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
In terms of what spm62 posted, and his/her using June as an example: To be completely honest, I do not have a problem with fundamentalist Christianity telling me that I am destined for hell. You see, it's not something I personalize. I don't need to. I am very much aware of what they believe, and why. In other words, I can be accepting of a belief that is diametrically opposed to mine without losing my mind over it.
June, I knew you didn`t have a problem of being told you were destined for hell in your current state by fundamentilist christians. Simply because being an atheist, you don`t believe it. Neither do I . That was my point. If I felt like you would have been offended in any way,I never would have brought it up. But there have been a couple of post recently about this idea of eternal torture being different when applied to real people that we know and love. So I questioned the very people on here that are so bold and adamant about it. It is easy to sit behind a computer and condemn the hitlers of the world and billions of people in general to eternal hellfire and torture. It is quite another when we are talking about real people that we know. As I stated to you last night, I`m sure there are lurkers who may have lost a loved one or a child that was an atheist or unbeliever. Perhaps they come here looking for answers or support. Perhaps they want reassurance about the person they love so dear. Then when they come here and see people saying things such as... if you didn`t accept Christ in this life he will torture you forever, and you are only getting what you deserve,you had your chance,etc. I feel that only magnifies their suffering and perhaps throws them in a state of dispair. I don`t feel that is loving or Christlike. So I and others are here to show those people that is not what God is all about. That is not proclaiming the love of Christ. That is not the good news. That does not represent the love of God.
By personalizing it with them,my goal was to perhaps give them pause to think and speak a little more gently and choose their words a little more carefully before speaking so proudly and forcefully about throwing people into hell. Because we are not just talking about the hitlers,stalins, and CU`s of the world. Like you, I have no problem with them saying I am going to hell,etc.Because I know with what spirit they speak. My goodness,I believe Jesus is the savior of the world and verna calls me a liar and says she respects your belief(atheisim) more than mine. That coming from a so called christian,no less. But still there may be very emotional and vulnerable people that lurk here. People that we don`t know what they have been through. So when they see that there are indeed very knowledgable and God loving christians on here that even fundamentilist will throw into torture,then perhaps they can see that kind of ET rhetoric for what it is. The reluctance of the Et crowd to speak so bodly last night(like they usually do) when confronted with a real person proved my point and hopefully will help the lurkers here that may have lost a loved one that didn`t know Christ.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-15-2009, 01:17 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,236,240 times
Reputation: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
June, I knew you didn`t have a problem of being told you were destined for hell in your current state by fundamentilist christians. Simply because being an atheist, you don`t believe it. Neither do I . That was my point. If I felt like you would have been offended in any way,I never would have brought it up. But there have been a couple of post recently about this idea of eternal torture being different when applied to real people that we know and love. So I questioned the very people on here that are so bold and adamant about it. It is easy to sit behind a computer and condemn the hitlers of the world and billions of people in general to eternal hellfire and torture. It is quite another when we are talking about real people that we know. As I stated to you last night, I`m sure there are lurkers who may have lost a loved one or a child that was an atheist or unbeliever. Perhaps they come here looking for answers or support. Perhaps they want reassurance about the person they love so dear. Then when they come here and see people saying things such as... if you didn`t accept Christ in this life he will torture you forever, and you are only getting what you deserve,you had your chance,etc. I feel that only magnifies their suffering and perhaps throws them in a state of dispair. I don`t feel that is loving or Christlike. So I and others are here to show those people that is not what God is all about. That is not proclaiming the love of Christ. That is not the good news. That does not represent the love of God.
By personalizing it with them,my goal was to perhaps give them pause to think and speak a little more gently and choose their words a little more carefully before speaking so proudly and forcefully about throwing people into hell. Because we are not just talking about the hitlers,stalins, and CU`s of the world. Like you, I have no problem with them saying I am going to hell,etc.Because I know with what spirit they speak. My goodness,I believe Jesus is the savior of the world and verna calls me a liar and says she respects your belief(atheisim) more than mine. That coming from a so called christian,no less. But still there may be very emotional and vulnerable people that lurk here. People that we don`t know what they have been through. So when they see that there are indeed very knowledgable and God loving christians on here that even fundamentilist will throw into torture,then perhaps they can see that kind of ET rhetoric for what it is. The reluctance of the Et crowd to speak so bodly last night(like they usually do) when confronted with a real person proved my point and hopefully will help the lurkers here that may have lost a loved one that didn`t know Christ.
You proved nothing whatsoever...EXCEPT.............nevermind.

Oh..and the red bolded section of your post above...I'd like for you to prove where one of us said we felt differently towards those we love...I will wait to see this...name thread and post number. If you don't or can't...you've proved something else about yourself as well.

Good day.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-15-2009, 01:19 PM
 
7,788 posts, read 10,449,066 times
Reputation: 3392
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
June, I knew you didn`t have a problem of being told you were destined for hell in your current state by fundamentilist christians. Simply because being an atheist, you don`t believe it. Neither do I . That was my point. If I felt like you would have been offended in any way,I never would have brought it up. But there have been a couple of post recently about this idea of eternal torture being different when applied to real people that we know and love. So I questioned the very people on here that are so bold and adamant about it. It is easy to sit behind a computer and condemn the hitlers of the world and billions of people in general to eternal hellfire and torture. It is quite another when we are talking about real people that we know. As I stated to you last night, I`m sure there are lurkers who may have lost a loved one or a child that was an atheist or unbeliever. Perhaps they come here looking for answers or support. Perhaps they want reassurance about the person they love so dear. Then when they come here and see people saying things such as... if you didn`t accept Christ in this life he will torture you forever, and you are only getting what you deserve,you had your chance,etc. I feel that only magnifies their suffering and perhaps throws them in a state of dispair. I don`t feel that is loving or Christlike. So I and others are here to show those people that is not what God is all about. That is not proclaiming the love of Christ. That is not the good news. That does not represent the love of God.
By personalizing it with them,my goal was to perhaps give them pause to think and speak a little more gently and choose their words a little more carefully before speaking so proudly and forcefully about throwing people into hell. Because we are not just talking about the hitlers,stalins, and CU`s of the world. Like you, I have no problem with them saying I am going to hell,etc.Because I know with what spirit they speak. My goodness,I believe Jesus is the savior of the world and verna calls me a liar and says she respects your belief(atheisim) more than mine. That coming from a so called christian,no less. But still there may be very emotional and vulnerable people that lurk here. People that we don`t know what they have been through. So when they see that there are indeed very knowledgable and God loving christians on here that even fundamentilist will throw into torture,then perhaps they can see that kind of ET rhetoric for what it is. The reluctance of the Et crowd to speak so bodly last night(like they usually do) when confronted with a real person proved my point and hopefully will help the lurkers here that may have lost a loved one that didn`t know Christ.

June understands what you're saying.

June would hope that any lurkers would hopefully be able to discern the difference between dogma, doctrine, and the like. June is the last person who would ever wish to see anybody hurt. Unintentionally or otherwise.

One last thing, though: June tends to doubt that it is the 'fundamentalists' themselves who are sending people to hell.

-Wouldn't that be 'someone else'?

Take gentle care, spm62!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-15-2009, 01:50 PM
 
2,945 posts, read 4,772,736 times
Reputation: 1603
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
June understands what you're saying.

June would hope that any lurkers would hopefully be able to discern the difference between dogma, doctrine, and the like. June is the last person who would ever wish to see anybody hurt. Unintentionally or otherwise.

One last thing, though: June tends to doubt that it is the 'fundamentalists' themselves who are sending people to hell.

-Wouldn't that be 'someone else'?

Take gentle care, spm62!
No june, no one is sending anybody there forever.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-16-2009, 07:38 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,373,213 times
Reputation: 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
So you believe an atheist,like June, (sorry june,but you seem to be the only atheist on here that everybody likes) will inherit eternal life? Eventhough she has heard the gospel,has read the bible but still rejects it as far as christianity is concerned. I know she doesn`t reject the fundamental principle of love that is taught in the bible.
Exactly. Romans 2 says that God will judge the secrets of those not under the Law, through Jesus Christ. So why would someone who doesn't believe based upon lack of evidence for themselves, but yet holds to the basic tenants of the doctrine of Love?


Quote:
But again,someone like June knows about the law and has probably studied the bible more than I have, you believe she is still destined for life? (I hope so)
Knows about the Law, and being under the Law are 2 different things. She doesn't feel compelled, or convicted to do anything that is outlined in the Word. She already has Love, so the need to put her under a religious dogma amy in fact hurt her.


Quote:
In other words,people like Hitler,stalin, and believers in CU?
Believers in CU, and teachers and preachers of CU are in a different class, imo. I believed in UR at one point, remember.

Quote:
But what if the hilters and stalins of the world never heard anything about the truth?
Ok, following this logic look at it this way. Was the fruit of love evidenced in their lives? Or were the they inherantly evil, like Pharoah?

Quote:
Isn`t sin..sin? I know in our eyes it isn`t but in God`s eyes? If they didn`t know any better,what`s the difference?
Sin is the breaking of God's Law defined. Can you break a law you didn't acknowledge, or know existed?

James says:

Therefore, to one who knows {the} right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Well that goes way beyond the scope of God's Laws. But look at this verse in reverse.

Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does it, to him it is righteous.


Quote:
Sounds like you`re not sure about what you believe. Is that why you don`t talk about it much, cause you are not sure?
I am almost certain in what I believe to be the truth. But since there is no way to prove it outside of death and endless debates, I leave it alone. Beliefs are something we should strive to understand only from God and those He uses to speak through.

But to others who preach their doctrines as an absolute truth, this is very dangerous. Why? Because now they are speaking on behalf of God. Prophets who are not prophets. Preachers who are not called. And students who have not learned and sought the full counsel of God's Word.


Quote:
But you are not sure about your belief. How can you be sure CU is not correct? I can understand if you think it isn`t. But for someone who seems unsure about what is or isn`t the truth, you sure do attack the CU belief.
I try my best to disprove it, because the Word does not FULLY support it. Not being absolutely sure about my belief keeps me grounded firmly in the Word. If I was absolutely certain about my beliefs, then that part of the journey is over. Well, that is the exciting for myself, the mysteries of the Word, the untoold revelations, and the Grandness of the Son.


Quote:
Do you believe there is one truth?
Yes, as far the whole is concerned. His Name is Jesus Christ.
As far as the rest of us are concerned, we are only given minor tidbits of Truth, as we are drawn in.

Quote:
Do you believe God wants us to know that truth?
Only if it brings Glory to His Son. And only if we are absolutely sincere in our desires to know the Truth. How many people take a revelation given to them by God, and then start a new denomination, or even religion?

Quote:
I never see you attacking those that believe in ET with such passion that you attack CU with. Why is that? As a matter of fact you seem to come to their defense.
They are only professing what they believe to be the truth as it is taught to them, right? People who have "left" that doctrine, and go to the other extreme, have actually sought out that the doctrine of ET was false, and it weighed on their hearts. This is good. This is the work of God in their lives, and people should feel blessed that God would lead them through the different doctrines concerning our faith.

But those who have totally embraced UR have stopped. Their journey is over concerning the truth, and they passionately defend it with everything they have. Almost cultish. How do I know this? I was there at one time.


Quote:
Eventhough most of the post that promote ET are some of the most self righteous,prideful,arrogant post on here. Isn`t that dangerous as well?
Oh, extremely dangerous. Ask Fundy how many times he and I have gone round and round.


Quote:
They did. Why were the gentiles excluded from moses`s law? Why was the rest of the world not told about Jesus for thousands of years? Some still don`t know.
Because there was no need to, really. Telling someone about the Good News of Jesus, and indoctrinating them into a religion based upon numbers and tithes are 2 entirely different things. Are they doing it out of love, or are they doing because they are "told" to by their leaders?


Quote:
Nothing can prevail against the spirit of God. but God does what he wants in his own timing and not man`s timing.
Agreed. So the accountability of man rests with God, not man. Jesus gets ALL the Glory, in both heaven and earth. This is His inheritance. He will decide who is going to enter into His Kingdom, and who isn't.

Quote:
As I don`t beleive people who teach CU push their doctrine on anyone but I see you attack it constantly.
Really? Read all of their posts. It is everywhere, all the time. Usually quoting a couple of verses, repeatedly.

Quote:
Yes,we proclaim it as true but we do not threaten anyone.
Yes you do. You threaten their faith, and what they believe. This is a huge threat. Think about it.

Quote:
But as you say,you are not really 100% sure, you are just searching.
And I have said that NOONE is absolutely sure. This is why I search.


Quote:
I can respect that.
Thank you. But you are done searching? Why?

Quote:
But I don`t understand that for someone who says they are searching but unsure exactly what the truth is,you seem to attack CU which I would think is at least closer to what you believe than God`s torture of humans.
While it is closer, I do not believe it to be the truth. It is just the extreme opposite to what fundamental Christianity teaches. While this is good that God led you all out of the doctrines of torture, why end the journey? And why teach it as absolute? The whole of the counsel of God's Word doesn't support it.

Quote:
Yet, you almost to seem to embrace that teaching or at the very least be indifferent to it.
Actually, I do not embrace torture at all. This is the main difference between my belief and yours. Torture is torture. Does it make any difference if it for a day, a year, a million years, or forever? Does God torture? Is this even an attribute we could describe as being of God? I think in my whole of my being, no it isn't.

But God does talk of remembering the wicked, no more. God does talk of the wicked being gone. God does talk of the wicked being told to depart from His Presence.

We are God's creation. He has shown in His Word that He is not afraid to just extinguish the lights of the wicked. The wicked. Not the whole of the world who doesn't know. Not the whole of the world that He hasn't drawn in. Just the Wicked One, and the children of the Wicked One. For them there is no hope.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top