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Old 10-14-2009, 09:52 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 7,632,635 times
Reputation: 852

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Yes . . . and I am extremely knowledgeable about it . . . far beyond the average seminary graduate. What is your point? Please don't tell me you are going to continue to maintain I am LYING because YOU do NOT believe my interpretations of the spiritual significance and status of scripture, Verna. I will surely lose all patience with you and have to revise my opinion of your loving nature . . . and of which spirit is influencing your beliefs.
Mystic...you've been very respectful toward me, and I appreciate that. Honestly, I'm not real sure what a "Mystic" believes concerning ET...Annil...UR...?...so I truly did not think about you in my earlier reply.
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Old 10-14-2009, 09:53 PM
 
2,949 posts, read 5,484,677 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
I do believe in annihilation, mingled with a "form" of LR. LR is something I just now made up. Limited Restoration for those who DO NOT know the Way of Christ, and not called by the Spirit, but yet are not wicked and unChristlike. Like June, for example. If God calls her one day, it is for Him. If He doesn't call her, is she doomed to destruction, because He didn't? I think not. Remember the "twice the son of hell" people who come into religion? I believe these are pure hearted people, who are seduced by religion, and then their pure heart is taken away.
So you believe an atheist,like June, (sorry june,but you seem to be the only atheist on here that everybody likes) will inherit eternal life?Eventhough she has heard the gospel,has read the bible but still rejects it as far as christianity is concerned. I know she doesn`t reject the fundamental principle of love that is taught in the bible.

Quote:
Without the Law these people cannot be held accountable to the Law. There is no tutor, therefore there cannot be accountablility held against them.
But again,someone like June knows about the law and has probably studied the bible more than I have, you believe she is still destined for life? (I hope so

Quote:
Those I see being annihilated are the wicked, evil, perverse people.
In other words,people like Hitler,stalin, and believers in CU?
But what if the hilters and stalins of the world never heard anything about the truth? Isn`t sin..sin? I know in our eyes it isn`t but in God`s eyes? If they didn`t know any better,what`s the difference?

Quote:
But hey, this is only the truth as it has been revealed to me, and no one should take this as an absolute.
Sounds like you`re not sure about what you believe. Is that why you don`t talk about it much, cause you are not sure?

Quote:
But on the other hand, the reason I am opposed to those who teach the full teaching of UR, is that the Word does not "entirely" support this doctrine.
But you are not sure about your belief. How can you be sure CU is not correct? I can understand if you think it isn`t. But for someone who seems unsure about what is or isn`t the truth, you sure do attack the CU belief.

Quote:
And those who do support it, do so with such a feverent unbridled passion, that they expouse this as THE absolute Truth.
Do you believe there is one truth? Do you believe God wants us to know that truth? I never see you attacking those that believe in ET with such passion that you attack CU with. Why is that? As a matter of fact you seem to come to their defense.
Eventhough most of the post that promote ET are some of the most self righteous,prideful,arrogant post on here. Isn`t that dangerous as well?

Quote:
Very dangerous indeed. If this was the case, why did not the church teach this for a couple of thousand years?
They did. Why were the gentiles excluded from moses`s law? Why was the rest of the world not told about Jesus for thousands of years? Some still don`t know.

Quote:
Dark ages does not stop the Spirit of God. We all should know this, otherwise the Gospel would be dead by now, by those in power.
Nothing can prevail against the spirit of God. but God does what he wants in his own timing and not man`s timing.

Quote:
So, hopefully this clarifies a few things about me. Some of what I believe would also be heretic in most Christian circles, but this is the reason it is my journey, and my search, my truth. I don't push this belief on anyone, as no one knows for sure. They are not dead, and talking.
As I don`t beleive people who teach CU push their doctrine on anyone but I see you attack it constantly. Yes,we proclaim it as true but we do not threaten anyone. But as you say,you are not really 100% sure, youare just searching. I can respect that. But I don`t understand that for someone who says they are searching but unsure exactly what the truth is,you seem to attack CU which I would think is at least closer to what you believe than God`s torture of humans. Yet, you almost to seem to embrace that teaching or at the very least be indifferent to it.
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Old 10-14-2009, 10:08 PM
 
7,991 posts, read 12,228,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
June is one of those people. It seems, you are now embarrassed by your statements.
She would have absolutely no reason to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62
But it says a lot about your belief and character verna. It says a lot about where your heart is at. Perhaps you are afraid,embarrassed,and ashamed to PUBLICLY confront an atheist with your truth about them. I can certainly understand why. Especially when it is someone that you like very much, and that is my point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62
You and latte have proven my point very well, which I knew you would.
It is going on midnight here on the east coast, and I need to go to bed. --But not without saying this, first:

What is as sad as it is clear (at least to this person) is the fact that you chose to use me as the leverage in your efforts to set the fundamentalist believers up.

-It was highly manipulative.

It was unfair to do so.

It was also not necessary.


In your own words:

Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62

It says a lot about where your heart is at.

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Old 10-14-2009, 10:11 PM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,295 posts, read 9,661,585 times
Reputation: 17805
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
sorry if you think my questions are arrogant. Of course I could say the same thing about your questions.

Speaking of arrogance,that is the tone of your post, not this one. So, I`m just pointing out that it is easy to be arrogant and condescending about throwing people like hitler,stalin,or me into fiery pit for eternity but quite another to those who you like or love. That`s why most ET`ers never dream any of their loved ones are going there and so easy for them to throw everybody else and their brother in there and proclaim it with such boldness and self assurance. But it`s quite a different story when speaking to someone on a personal level.
Excuse me....but I have not thrown anyone into hell! I am not God!!!
As far as those you have mention in your reply, I can not make that judgment call either.... for the reason I am not God. Hello....
So..... don't group me with other's that have possibly made that statement.

Loved ones....spm62, why do you make such statements like that? And by the way.....my Grandmother's, Grandfather's, cousins, oh, the list can go on, is probably in hell. But once again I am not God and I wasn't there in their heart the last moments of their life.....only God was! But one day I will know.

My Dad hasn't even or want to received Christ and he is pretty close to ending his life in this world. That is between him and God....
I have many loved ones that myself and other's have shared the gospel of Jesus Christ on many of occasions and they don't want to have anything to do with God...... period!
What can one say or do....nothing, but I sure can pray for them. This is something that is between them and God. So making that statement thinking that we dream only our loved ones will be in heaven and all other's won't..... that is such a lie! You don't know our hearts and lives.....you sit there in front of that computer and make such accusations is.....rediculous! I'm so thankful God hears and sees all this!!! And He knows the heart, not you....spm62!

I and most Christians don't sit around dwelling upon those kind of things.....spm62! Especially hell. It just really seems the Ur's can not get beyond it themselves. Their always bringing it up, making accusations, starting threads about it, it is...really sad. The obsession with hell that Ur's have, it's unbelievable.


Quote:
I haven`t kept track but I don`t go around knocking on doors if that is what you are asking. But then again, my belief is different from yours. Remember, I`m one of those guys who are going to hell because I believe Jesus is the savior of ALL men,especially those that believe.
Well...that is your choice spm62! The Holy Spirit has brought the truth to you many, many of times.

Quote:
I`ve posted my story on here a couple of times. I will again if you like. BTW, I know very little about you other than your zeal for ET.
I don't have a zeal for hell....spm62! What's the matter with you? That is a awful thing to say. I truly am so thankful God hears, sees all things....and most of all, He knows my heart. Amen!!!

Well maybe you should get around city-data a little and see what happens in the other parts of it.....other than the Christianity forum. Get to know some really nice folks out there from all over the world.

Have a good night....this girl is going to bed been a long day!!

Blessings
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Old 10-14-2009, 10:14 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 7,632,635 times
Reputation: 852
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
She would have absolutely no reason to be.





It is going on midnight here on the east coast, and I need to go to bed. --But not without saying this, first:

What is as sad as it is clear (at least to this person) is the fact that you chose to use me as the leverage in your efforts to set the fundamentalist believers up.

-It was highly manipulative.

It was unfair to do so.

It was also not necessary.


In your own words:
Thank you June...I love you. And you are in my sweet, gentle prayers...

...as you always have been...
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Old 10-14-2009, 10:19 PM
 
7,991 posts, read 12,228,911 times
Reputation: 4348
This one needs a rest for the night.


TEMPORARILY CLOSED TILL MORNING PENDING THE MODERATOR "SLEEPING ON IT."



Everyone breathe....


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Old 10-15-2009, 07:04 AM
 
7,991 posts, read 12,228,911 times
Reputation: 4348
Default When June writes in the "first person" we know what that means:

Good morning all!

I would like to re-open this thread, but I also want to say a few things, first.

It's somewhat interesting to me how day in and day out people have been known to complain about how "un-Christian" this forum is, and yet, that claim has always struck me as being more self-reflective than accusatory. You see, you guys ARE the Christianity subforum. And while I don't know for certain, I would speculate that just as it is not uncommon to sit next to someone in church who doesn't agree with something exactly the way you do, the same exists here. -The difference, however, is that in 'real life' none of us are afforded the illusion of anonymity that would appear to exist here.

--But that anonymity doesn't matter, or at least it shouldn't.

Here's the thing: I truly feel that both 'sides' to the issue that went down last night deserve to be upheld here. (Namely, that of June's being destined to burn in hell.) So in fairness to all, here goes:

I don't spend a whole lot of time thinking about what is going to happen to me after I croak. That isn't to say that I haven't given it some amount of thought. Everyone, believer and atheist alike, question and ponder their own demise and the outcome of that at some point in time. For me, personally, I can tell you that I am far more concerned with how I am living my life now, while I am still here. It's the only life I have.

In terms of what spm62 posted, and his/her using June as an example: To be completely honest, I do not have a problem with fundamentalist Christianity telling me that I am destined for hell. You see, it's not something I personalize. I don't need to. I am very much aware of what they believe, and why. In other words, I can be accepting of a belief that is diametrically opposed to mine without losing my mind over it. I can also love and respect those who uphold those beliefs. I can honestly say that I would have no problem with any one on here doing exactly what spm62 was attempting to get people to do last night: To "tell June directly that she is going to burn in hell." I was almost tempted to offer to let people DM me for the "June hotline number" last night as a means of both proving a point, along with the fact that I think it would be fascinating to actually have an honest, real discussion about it, except that I feared being flooded with a deluge of incoming phone calls late at night. (Time zone differential, and all, ya know?)

I have spoken with individuals who are fundamentalist Christians before. I know that they believe that in my current nonbelieving state, that I am destined -if not 'fast tracked'- to hell. It's okay. -At least for me, as I assume it would be for any atheist, as it is not my perspective, reality, or belief system. At the same time, however, I understand that it is not necessarily as 'okay' with them, as I suspect that no one wishes to see a friend or loved one end up in hell.

In an odd sort of way, I couldn't help but think upon waking up this morning (thankfully not having perished in my sleep overnight, only to be posting this from 'who-knows-where!') that in challenging the fundamentalists in his/her posts, that spm62 inadvertently reinforced that whole debate. -Did I feel it was a tad manipulative to go about it in the way it was done? Yes, but again, I don't harbor any ill will towards spm62; I have no reason to. I more than understand that a point was attempting to be made, and that what would appear at first glance to be a call for accountability on the part of the fundamentalists on this forum (in a few cases, at least) did in fact take place. That actually struck me as a good thing. People were able to be true to their beliefs, defend what they believe, even in the face of quite possibly having to tell me that I am destined for a reservation to a place where no one in their right mind would look forward to!

So in my overly long-winded way, what is it that I am trying to say? THIS:

For goodness sake, people, there would appear to be more to the Gospel, more to Christianity, and certainly more to each and every one of you than just this issue of eternal torment and hell. Like I said earlier, I don't have a stake in it, I don't personalize it, and I certainly do not have even a remote problem with that aspect of fundamentalist Christian belief. However, even in the event that June is destined to burn eternally, how about this notion: In the meantime, while I am still alive, perhaps there is a bit more to the gospel of Christ that could be highlighted? Perhaps there was more to be said by Jesus than where everyone goes after death?

Because this much I do know: I don't recall anywhere in the NT where it is said that Jesus gained followers by attempting to threaten the living daylights out of them. I guess I can't help but wonder why the endless fascination on here as regards the ET vs. UR debate regarding hell, at the expense of all the rest of what Jesus said. Any concept in life can be compartmentalized, emphasized, and debated to death. (Intentional pun, there folks.) --But it's just that I so often find myself wondering why this other aspect of your doctrinal belief doesn't get equal time, equal emphasis, as well:

That Jesus said "Follow me" along with something about drinking from a well, and something about life? -Along with who he said it to, and how!

So with that, no hard feelings, and let's all try and have a good day, shall we?

June is still among us, alive and well, and she ain't goin' to hell today, hopefully! Actually, in fact, right now she's going to work! (But yet where "The Eyes of June" are nonetheless ever present!).....

P.S. Isn't there a passage somewhere in the bible that says something to the effect that 'This is the day that the Lord has made. Let's rejoice, and be glad?' --Because even an atheist can ponder that one! (Not bad, she says to herself...)


Take gentle care.

Last edited by june 7th; 10-15-2009 at 08:18 AM..
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:17 AM
 
Location: USA
17,156 posts, read 11,322,395 times
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Hi June,

I don't post a great deal so you probably don't "know" me but I thought I'd stick my nose in here anyway. First of all, nice to "meet" you.

I just wanted to respond to the following:


Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
For goodness sake, people, there would appear to be more to the Gospel, more to Christianity, and certainly more to each and every one of you than just this issue of eternal torment and hell. Like I said earlier, I don't have a stake in it, I don't personalize it, and I certainly do not have even a remote problem with that aspect of fundamentalist Christian belief. However, even in the event that June is destined to burn eternally, how about this notion: In the meantime, while I am still alive, perhaps there is a bit more to the gospel of Christ that could be highlighted? Perhaps there was more to be said by Jesus than where everyone goes after death?

Because this much I do know: I don't recall anywhere in the NT where it is said that Jesus gained followers by attempting to threaten the living daylights out of them. I guess I can't help but wonder why the endless fascination on here as regards the ET vs. UR debate regarding hell, at the expense of all the rest of what Jesus said. Any concept in life can be compartmentalized, emphasized, and debated to death. (Intentional pun, there folks.) --But it's just that I so often find myself wondering why this other aspect of your doctrinal belief doesn't get equal time, equal emphasis, as well:

That Jesus said "Follow me" along with something about drinking from a well, and something about life? -Along with who he said it to, and how!

As a once staunch believer in ET, I think that the debate between ET/UR is all about following Jesus. At the heart of it, the debate is not about where people go after physical death but centers on the character of God (which the Bible says is revealed in it's fulness in Jesus Christ). What one believes about God's character has everything to do with how one lives their life in the here and now.

I can only speak from my experience, but believing that God was capable of allowing the majority of the world's population to burn in endless torment didn't go a long way towards bringing me joy. Not only that, it very much hindered my ability to live as a follower of Christ since I spent so much time in torment, literally, over the concept of hell.

I have come to the understanding that God's plan does not exclude countless numbers of people but that in His infinite wisdom and steadfast love He will bring all people to Him; that Jesus truly is the Savior of the world, and that His victory over death and sin is just that: SURE VICTORY, not a mere attempt which only benefits a few but leaves the rest of humanity still trapped in sin and death for eternity.

I have learned that the love of God, fierce as it is, and unfailing!, will not leave anyone, not even me, behind. That passage you quoted about rejoicing in the day the Lord has made. You'll find that in Psalm 118. That DAY that the psalmist is speaking of? It's the day of salvation, and the psalmist was prophesying of the "day" that Jesus Christ would usher in. It's a day that all of us, every one, will enter and you better believe I'm rejoicing in that!

Believing in the truth of UR has changed everything for me, because it changed my view of who God is. This not only allows me to more fully experience His love for me, which is changing who I am, but it also allows me to begin experiencing what it means to have HIS heart of love for ALL, and that is changing me even more, I believe. And that, I believe, is what following Jesus is all about.

So, again June, at the heart of it, this debate about UR/ET truly goes much, much deeper than perhaps you realize. Just my thoughts.
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:45 AM
 
13,640 posts, read 24,437,987 times
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I have to agree with Pleroo..I have read this thread and it is much deeper than reward and punishment..It is about the very character/nature of God..Some see Him as sort of a dictator...follow my rules , love me and you will be rewarded..disobey me in your 70 years allotted to you and you will suffer my wrath for eternity..

Some see him as the prodigals Father who waits patiently for his son to return, because he loves him and has given him the freedom to make choices that may or may not be pleasing to his father, but pure love is merciful, forgiving and does not require love to be returned out of fear..

God is love..We as humans have the capacity to love, hate, sin or to forgive ..Pure love has no room for eternal punishment or tests to see if we love Him..

For myself, I believe that God is all about loving one another, being good to each other and thanking Him daily for His son by whom we are promised to be forgiven of our sins and have eternal life..It is about following Him..not the fears of man religions..

JMHO
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:54 AM
 
6,657 posts, read 8,093,219 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Blue View Post
I have to agree with Pleroo..I have read this thread and it is much deeper than reward and punishment..It is about the very character/nature of God..Some see Him as sort of a dictator...follow my rules , love me and you will be rewarded..disobey me in your 70 years allotted to you and you will suffer my wrath for eternity..

Some see him as the prodigals Father who waits patiently for his son to return, because he loves him and has given him the freedom to make choices that may or may not be pleasing to his father, but pure love is merciful, forgiving and does not require love to be returned out of fear..

God is love..We as humans have the capacity to love, hate, sin or to forgive ..Pure love has no room for eternal punishment or tests to see if we love Him..

For myself, I believe that God is all about loving one another, being good to each other and thanking Him daily for His son by whom we are promised to be forgiven of our sins and have eternal life..It is about following Him..not the fears of man religions..

JMHO
Amen Miss Blue and Pleroo!

The whole ET/UR debate is fundamental to our whole purpose here. God is love, and we are to be made into His image, which is LOVE. We are to become as loving as God is! If you hold ET to be true, you will be limiting God, limiting yourself, and limiting love.

This idea that some beings will be tortured for eternity is a huge stumbling block in trying to figure out how love works. Its only when you realize that God will not let anyone be tortured for an eternity that you can then begin to understand this thing called love.

God is love, love never fails and love covers all wrongs. Love is the most powerful force in the universe, and we will be made in that image of Love eventually.

Peace out.
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