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Old 10-19-2009, 11:08 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,291,776 times
Reputation: 420

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
According to God's Word, "The wages of sin is death," not never ending torture. When will you understand that, "...the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy" (Jam 5:11) and not wrath?
What is the second death James?

The latter part of your statement is for mankind, and His mercy is endless when you accept Christ.

Before I get into the tenets of prophetic scripture, are you a futurist?
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:34 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 845,100 times
Reputation: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
What is the second death James?

The latter part of your statement is for mankind, and His mercy is endless when you accept Christ.

Before I get into the tenets of prophetic scripture, are you a futurist?
I believe in the present existence of Holy Scripture so I am not an Over-full Preterist. Whatever is contained in Scripture existed before my incarnation and I have it now before me with much help with translating the Hebrew and Greek into my native tongue.

I consider Preterism, Historicism, and Futurism to be kinds of Literalists. Each is simply a view from another time perspective and are equally valid with the proviso they are corrected to accord more accurately with the truth. The Symbolic interpretation of Scripture is perhaps the most beneficial to making advance in the spiritual life. (It seems to spoil my lovely post; but, I must confess a particular grudge against racial dispensationalism)

I believe the words of Scripture to be a sort of software for my consciousness that when sufficiently impressed into the hardware of my brain I become a conduit of the Divine nature, both experiencing God and by the means of God, as well as becoming a demonstratorof God.
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:43 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 845,100 times
Reputation: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
What is the second death James?

The latter part of your statement is for mankind, and His mercy is endless when you accept Christ.

Before I get into the tenets of prophetic scripture, are you a futurist?
God said He will abolish death. This has begun with the head of the ruling body. Death has no more dominion over Him. Though there be 10,000 deaths, why would we believe He renegs on the worst form of death of which we are aware? It is our Lord Who proclaims the sure future for everything everywhere: "NO MORE PAIN!...it has already been done," (Rv 21:4-6)

I think you must reconceive what the lake of fire is if you seriously think of this: What kind of thing is it that Death and the state that results from death, Hades can be cast into?
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:51 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,206,041 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Hey Brother...after reading Isaiah, I would like you or other that adhere to UR to explain these:

These places are regarding Sheol, and since you don't adhere to Full Preterism, I imagine you believe it still exists, which is irrellevant either way, but let's move forward:

Isa 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Without getting into the context of the text too much, but I will note that Isaiah's description here is most likely the fate of the wicked by the Lord's slaying of 185,000 men of the Assyrian army during the reign of Hezekiah.
Either way, they are abhorring and they are consumed, whereas so bad that "the worm shall not die."

Daniel 12:2 ...Everlasting Contempt.... is the he second major Old Testament text used by traditionalists to support everlasting punishment. This speaks of the resurrection of both good and evil: "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Daniel teaches that whereas the godly will be raised to never-ending life, the wicked will be raised to never-ending disgrace.

What say you?
Yes, Isa 66:17 and Isa 66:24 can be understood in different ways. It can be seen as the earthly fate of the wicked and those that resist the lord.

You should understand it as the judgment that came upon Israel when the temple fell in ad 70 which preceded the creation of the new heavens of the new earth according to preterism, or as you say it was the fate of the wicked by the Lord's slaying of 185,000 men of the Assyrian army during the reign of Hezekiah ... I agree with these understandings but i believe there to be a literal recreation of the heavens and earth at the fullness of times which the destruction of Israel in ad 70 and the destruction of the Assyrian army were only a foreshadowing of. I believe just as the carcasses of the unbelieving Hebrews were cast into Gehenna at that time, so will the carcasses of all those that resist him at his next advent be gathered together after the battle of Armageddon and burned and all those who are still alive will look upon the spectacle and it will be an abhorrence to them. But to imagine that the flames which are here described symbolically as being unquenchable is a literal reference is to believe that there will remain a putrid waste perpetually ablaze with everlasting carcasses and immortal maggots which will forever be a repugnance to all nations.

Yet we are told in Isa 25:8 that Death will be swallowed up in victory ...

Isa 25:8
He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

Also in ....

Rev 7:17
For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Rev 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


How can all tears be wiped away and death be truly swallowed up in victory if these people are forever being burned and causing all the nations to live in abhorrence? And if these wicked and unbelieving which make up the vast majority of humanity are for ever tortured then how can it be said there will be no more sorrow and no more pain? But these things which are a part of the judgments of God are a part of "former things" which shall "pass away" in the fullness of times.


As for Daniel 12:2, the word there translated as everlasting is olam which I have shown in post #67 to be improperly translated as everlasting ... Just as the word aionios is in the new testament as far as i understand it. The two resurrections represent different times and are for different purposes. The resurrection of the believers is to reign with Christ and the resurrection of the unbelievers is to undergo correction through Gods fiery judgments (1Cr 3:15) ... There are two different types of Gods judgments of fire. There is the literal and physical fiery judgment of God on the wicked while they are alive here in the ages and it causes their deaths, and the figurative spiritual judgments of individuals unto spiritual death and then renewal(Rev 21:5,1Cr 3:15) ... Remember, if the lake of fire is the second death, then when death is swallowed up in victory the lake of fire needs must also be swallowed up. Else it cannot be said that death has no victory or that it has been swallowed up at all.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-19-2009 at 11:59 PM..
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Old 10-20-2009, 05:48 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,490,198 times
Reputation: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Here is the verse you quoted:
The verse I quoted is Psalm 6:8

Now I looked it up at this website :
Psalm 6:8 Away from me, all you who do evil, for the LORD has heard my weeping.

Now I like this form of website as it gives me a wide choice of different Bible translations to pick from and to read.
This is what i always like to do to make sure I get a full context of what the different translators felt the text said.
If I dont get a wide view of what the different bible say, then sure enough some fool will make a big stink that i skipped his bible.

The word I wanted to use was "iniquity"
I like that word, it carries the water for the whole statement I wanted to make.

I noticed that King James Version had the wording that I liked in this case, so I went with it, but as for the "ye"?...well thats another topic, we just dont use the word "ye" as much as we used to...
However I was happy to see other versions also used the same wording, so I knew I was not just picking the "one" version that agreed with myself

NAS© Depart from me, all you who do iniquity,
KJV Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity;
AKJ Depart from me, all you workers of iniquity;
ASV Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity;
DRB Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity
DBY Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity;
ERV Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity;
WBS Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity
WEB Depart from me, all you workers of iniquity

Now the reason I went with this Old Test Bible verse is that when I read the well-known , "I never knew you " verse in the New Test I come away from it with the idea that Jesus was actually quoting this Psalms verse above.

The idea is that Jesus is sending the evil person away from Him with this as His last Command!

So I just quoted the Text...

The rest is in your head.....LOL

Last edited by alanMolstad; 10-20-2009 at 06:13 AM..
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Old 10-20-2009, 08:13 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
428 posts, read 691,906 times
Reputation: 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
LOL...let me get this right...
The meaning of "Lake Of fire" is said by someone to be a harbor?....LOL

You mean a the best place to park a boat or a ship is in the "lake of fire?"

does that even sound right?

Seems to me that if I were the Captain of a ship, and I saw a harbor that was completely on fire, I would tend to think that was not a great place to pull in and drop anchor at....LOL


I would look for the harbor not on fire,,,but thats just me.
Okay...you did catch the part of my post that said IN THE ORIGINAL GREEK. Right?

Have you even studied this? Because your response screams ignorance.

Ironmaw covered this is another post but the word for fire used here is used to denote sanctification and purification, not literal fire.
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Old 10-20-2009, 08:15 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,447,545 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by dipidydoodaa View Post
i was reading in another thread where the lake of fire was mention, having questions and not wanting to highjack the other thread, thought i would ask the questions in a new thread. i want to take them one at a time for clarity to each:

i read in Rev20:
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.



would it be safe to assume that the lake of fire is where the eternal punishment will take place?
The lake of fire is called death. One day death will be abolished and all those held by it will be subjected to Christ and then God will be All in all (see 1 Cor.15:22-28).

So, the lake of fire cannot possibly be eternal.
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Old 10-20-2009, 08:17 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,490,198 times
Reputation: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
Okay...you did catch the part of my post that said IN THE ORIGINAL GREEK. Right?

Because your response screams ignorance.
"screams"?...as in the use of all caps?

LOL...I like that phrase..."Screams ignorance"...

Well if nothing else, my posts seem to want to get attention then....
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Old 10-20-2009, 08:20 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,447,545 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
The verse I quoted is Psalm 6:8

Now I looked it up at this website :
Psalm 6:8 Away from me, all you who do evil, for the LORD has heard my weeping.

Now I like this form of website as it gives me a wide choice of different Bible translations to pick from and to read.
This is what i always like to do to make sure I get a full context of what the different translators felt the text said.
If I dont get a wide view of what the different bible say, then sure enough some fool will make a big stink that i skipped his bible.

The word I wanted to use was "iniquity"
I like that word, it carries the water for the whole statement I wanted to make.

I noticed that King James Version had the wording that I liked in this case, so I went with it, but as for the "ye"?...well thats another topic, we just dont use the word "ye" as much as we used to...
However I was happy to see other versions also used the same wording, so I knew I was not just picking the "one" version that agreed with myself

NAS© Depart from me, all you who do iniquity,
KJV Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity;
AKJ Depart from me, all you workers of iniquity;
ASV Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity;
DRB Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity
DBY Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity;
ERV Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity;
WBS Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity
WEB Depart from me, all you workers of iniquity

Now the reason I went with this Old Test Bible verse is that when I read the well-known , "I never knew you " verse in the New Test I come away from it with the idea that Jesus was actually quoting this Psalms verse above.

The idea is that Jesus is sending the evil person away from Him with this as His last Command!

So I just quoted the Text...

The rest is in your head.....LOL
Actually Jesus' last commands were given to Paul the apostle who He told that God will save all mankind and is the Saviour of all mankind (1 Tim.2:4-6; 4:10,11) among many other things.

Of course Christ is going to force those iniquitous Jews away from Him and cast them out of the 1000 year kingdom where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth because they are not in that kingdom to enjoy all its blessings. But by no means are they in some dantean hell.
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Old 10-20-2009, 08:25 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,490,198 times
Reputation: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Actually Jesus' last commands were given to Paul .
a moot point...
That would be the last words of Jesus to Saint Paul.
Thats not our topic here, so it's moot.

If you check my statement was about the last words of Jesus to the Lost as he commands them into the flame of Hells ever burning fire...

I believe that Jesus quotes the same verse I quoted in the Old test.
You can check it out, but Im more or less sure I got the same verse Jesus had in mind in his "I never knew you" statement....
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