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Old 10-20-2009, 10:31 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,290,245 times
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DId Polycarp err on the message of UR, yet he was an disciple of John and of Paul:

Polycarp 5:3

In like manner also the younger men must be blameless in all things, caring for purity before everything and curbing themselves from every
evil. For it is a good thing to refrain from lusts in the world, for every lust warreth against the Spirit, and neither whoremongers nor effeminate persons nor defilers of themselves with men shall inherit the kingdom of God, neither they that do untoward things. Wherefore it is right to abstain from all these things, submittingyourselves to the presbyters and deacons as to God and Christ. The virgins must walk in a blameless and pure conscience.

Polycarp 6:2
If then we entreat the Lord that He would forgive us, we also ought to forgive: for we are before the eyes of our Lord and God, and we must all stand at the judgment-seat of Christ, and each man must give an account of himself.

And he confirms the Lord returned:

Polycarp 6:3
Let us therefore so serve Him with fear and all reverence, as He himself gave commandment and the Apostles who preached the Gospel to us and the prophets who proclaimed beforehand the coming of our Lord; being zealous as touching that which is good, abstaining from offenses and from the false brethren and from them that bear the name of the Lord in hypocrisy, who lead foolish men astray.

Polycarp 7:1
For every one who shall not confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is antichrist: and whosoever shall not confess the testimony of the Cross, is of the devil; and whosoever shall pervert the oracles of the Lord to his own lusts and say that there is neither resurrection nor judgment, that man is the firstborn of Satan.

Polycarp 8:1
Let us therefore without ceasing hold fast by our hope and by the earnest of our righteousness, which is Jesus Christ who took up our sins in His own body upon the tree, who did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth, but for our sakes He endured all things, that we might live in Him.

Remind us of Jesus' words?

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

What is used in the actual text is σωθῆτε and not σῴζω which denotes conditionality in the sense that the subject being saved must also live accordingly in this life. Scripture describes a fourfold salvation: saved from the penalty, power, presence and the pleasure of sin in the use of its text as follows:

σωθῆτε σῴζω σωτηρία σωθῶσιν

The church did not believe in UR, which was only a small part of the church in the first few hundred years. This concept is purely bias and focuses only on the proponents of the tenets, whom eventually was placed apart and outside of the church. Although I have odds with the early church fathers, Polycarp is more credible than any of them, for he was in direct contact with people who witnessed the life of Jesus Christ.
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Old 10-21-2009, 12:04 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 844,899 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
What you are failing, like all others, is that all of these words are all rooted in AEI - which means what Ironmaw
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironmaw;1776-594196
The Greek word "Aei" means always, in the sense that a person who habitually does something - "always" does that thing, but this does not necessarily imply the sense of everlasting or eternal.

And the Greek word "on" also does not mean exist, it means "being"(a participle) as in he is "being" hard headed.

If the word aion is derived as Aristotle deduced from the words "aei" and "on", it means only a time in which a certian social, political, spiritual etc. trend continues. When that trend ends the aion in which that trend perpetuated ends as well. Thus the meaning of the word aion is age ...

However, again the etymology of Aristotle is highly suspect by today's standards as well as the argument you present in this case.
Ironmaw, I am tired of sparring with kindergarteners who only care to hear their own opinions. Besides, everybody seems so locked-into their beliefs. Of course, that is what is known as a "lull" in this fun-ride God has set up. He certainly knows how to shake anything loose if it pleases His fancy. I may not do much more on this thread. Who knows? I share the following because I expect you'll appreciate it:

The root AEI does not mean endlessness indicated by it use for limited past: Mk 15:8; limited present: 2 Cor 4:11; limited future: 2 Pet 1:12.

PS, I wrote this little comment before I noticed Eusebius' article on it in post #121. I'm going back to read it nowl
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Old 10-21-2009, 01:12 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 844,899 times
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I don't want to go look it up right now, but, around 448, or was it 449 AD, several things taught by Origen were pronounced officially false. One was that the devil and his angels would be changed by God, all their sin and evil removed and they would know the transformation of God's salvation. What's interesting is while the doctrine of the Salvation of all mankind was well known --the bishop elected head of the 2nd Ekeumenical Council was, for example, an outspoken Universal Salvation proponent-- this doctrine was not mentioned for censure.

It was about 50 years later, 499 I believe, Origen and his works were pronounced "anathema," the first ever by the fledgling bureaucratic harlot system of Gentile authority that was replacing the Eclessia. But it must also be noted that it was not an ekeumenical "anathema." It was only one produced by the bishops of Sparta, North Africa, and, I believe, Rome. There's a little more to it though.

One of four Roman Emperors at the time, Justinian, who had no business meddling in such matters, being only a secular authority, had summoned the local council. Justinian was a rather nasty piece of work. He would force nobles and their widows to sign their property over to him in their wills, sometimes seeing to his early appropriation of that property by the unnatural demise of the previous owners. It was something like 12 or 14 years before he had commanded the gathered local bishops to condemn Origen and his doctrine of Universal Salvation and they refused. I'm sure Justinian did some creative work on who showed up as bishops in 499 AD to get his own way.

Now this was the high point for condemning the doctrine that the Saving work of Christ Jesus includes all. More recently, only for some Institutional Churches traced from the Reformation has there been several centuries where the official stance of their hierarchical rulers was anti Universal Salvation. They hardly command an equal status with the rejection of Justinian's rigged "anathema." In our own day, it has been noted (as a sad fact to them) on CARM that 50% of "Christian" believers and over 70% of "Christian" ministers do not believe in a hell of ceaseless torture for ever.

I assure you, with out accepting the person of Jesus as the Bible repeatedly calls Him, "the Savior of all," there is a major aspect of the foundation missing for being the temple of the presence of God that He will build. To strenuously disagree with God's purpose in making mankind, His salvation of them as well as their future, places many outside of the present work of building up the temple of the Holy Spirit. No mechanations of man, no power of darkness, no devil, however big and bad, will prevent the birthing of a holy company of Overcomers who have complete victory over everything destroying mankind. Jesus is worthy of a people upon whom His name is written.

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." (1Ti 4:10)

Last edited by JamesMRohde; 10-21-2009 at 01:33 AM..
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Old 10-21-2009, 06:00 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,489,351 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
What is intersesting to me is that you say "the last words of Jesus" ... First of all what makes you think these are the last words of Jesus?
Thats easy, because they are the last words spoken to the lost as told to us by Jesus...so unless I feel qualified to then add more to what I think Jesus "might" say?.....but I don't.

Then the last words are and get to be in my post, the last words...

Last edited by alanMolstad; 10-21-2009 at 06:27 AM..
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:30 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,442,202 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Eusebius,

Fix your post and I may reply, and plus...do your homework
No, I will not fix it and I could care less if you reply. Humble yourself.
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:45 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,442,202 times
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The problem I perceive sciotamicks has is that he does not understand the adjective-noun relationship in common grammar.

Let's step through a little grammar lesson:


Mandibular = adjective
Mandible = noun
The mandibular pain I experience is pertaining to the mandible (jaw).


Heavenly = adjective
Heaven = noun
The heavenly angel visited Mary. The realm of the angel pertains to heaven.


American = adjective
America = noun
Obama is the American president. His presidency pertains to America.


Eonian = adjective
Eon = noun
God is said to be "the eonian God" (Rom.16:26). He is the Placer or Subjector pertaining to the eons.

Mat 25:46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Both the chastening and the life the NATIONS experience for giving Christ's brethren a cup of water is pertaining to the eon.


Whatever man may say AIONIOS and AION is derived from is a moot point. We can know exactly what it means by how God used it in the Scriptures.

The Bible states that all the eons end. When the eons end God cease being the eonian God for there will no longer be eons to subject people to, but will be "God, All in all."
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:54 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,442,202 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Thats easy, because they are the last words spoken to the lost as told to us by Jesus...so unless I feel qualified to then add more to what I think Jesus "might" say?.....but I don't.

Then the last words are and get to be in my post, the last words...
That was in Matthew 7.
Matthew 25:46 is later when Christ comes back to judge the nations as to how they treated His brethren during their 3 1/2 years of tribulation.

The "depart from Me for I never knew you" in chapter 7 of Matthew is also pertaining to that future time when Christ comes back and kicks people out of the 1000 year kingdom.
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Old 10-21-2009, 09:08 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,442,202 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
DId Polycarp err on the message of UR, yet he was an disciple of John and of Paul:

Polycarp 5:3
Is Polycarp the Bible? Who gives a flying flip what he thinks?

It just proves Paul was right:

1Ti 4:1 Now the spirit is saying explicitly, that in subsequent eras some will be withdrawing from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and the teachings of demons,

Eternal torment is from deceiving spirits and teachings of demons. Best stick with a properly translated bible.
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Old 10-21-2009, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,290,245 times
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Childish...rants....not understanding grammar...you folks (Eusebius and James Rhoades) need a lesson in the teachings of Christ...once you can talk with me with those lessons in mind..I will converse with you and just may consider your point valid.
I have been nothing but civil to each of you, and used proper debating tactics, however, the both of you have used circular reasoning and name calling as your defense.

Ironmaw, katonjj, ChrystyGril and some others, I appreciate your discussions as I always do, as they are mature and Christ centered.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 10-21-2009 at 01:54 PM..
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Old 10-21-2009, 01:49 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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So...al of us..let us defer from other sources outside of the Bible and stay within the context of scripture, since some of you think the lessons of others outside of scriptlure are not valid, even Polycarp, who was a disciple of John and Paul.

Let's talk about salvation. We know Christ died for all mankind, lost and righteous. So now let's look at he various verses in scripture about salvation.

The apex of Christ's completed work is His sacrificial death.

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

The believer can confess "I was saved when Jesus died for me"
Christ's present saving work primarily concerns Christ's role as mediator:

Roma 8:34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

God's saving work involves conviction of sin:

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Repentance from sin to God:

Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

2 Cor 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Faith in commitment to Christ:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Confession as Christ as Lord:

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rom 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Scripture describes these acts as a new birth:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

A New Creation:

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Adoption:

Rom :15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Gal 4:4-5 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

Empowerment to be God's children:

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Salvation is a free gift of God appropriated through faith:

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Saving faith is, however, obedient faith:

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

No individual merits salvation by fulfillment of God's law:

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Assurance of salvation is grounded in confidence that God is able to finish the good work that has begun in us:

Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

Folks, there is alot more about salvation than just the sacrifice of Christ for all mankind. Mankind must come to Christ to recieve that salvation or else he is destined for wrath and punishment. If one goes about their life without coming to Christ, he is destined for that wrath. The sacrifice of Christ was made available to all mankind, but all mankind, as we have seen over the last 2000 years, have not. Those in this life that deny Christ will be forever separated from God as if He never heard them:

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal (AIONIOS) life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Tim 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

The Bible is very clear that there is a Heaven and Hell and that both of them, are used in the context of "eternal/AIONIOS". Like I said previously in other posts, if we were to follow the same logic for an eternal/AIONIOS hell as being a temporary purging and cleasing of the human soul, then Heaven eternal/AIONIOS is only temporary as well. This logic collapses on itself from hollow ground.

I have shown above that salvation is finished in Christ's redemptive work, however, it is up to the believer's walk from his regeneration to secure that salvation. The Lord can "blot out names" wrtten in the book, is He so pleases.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

This rang true in the latter half of the first century, noted the seven letters to the churches, and this very verse above was directed at he Sardis church, who members were in danger of being removed from the Book of Life. The case for Universal Reconciliation is a noble one, but is only supported by selected texts of the scripture, when in contrast it is balanced evenly out by many verses in scripture that set the conditions of salvation to be laid on the shoulders of the one that is saved. God regenrates you into salvation for His purpose, but it is up to you to secure it.

Hebrew 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation;

Last edited by sciotamicks; 10-21-2009 at 02:01 PM..
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