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Old 01-30-2010, 05:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Again, so you choose not to explain why there are sinners in the New Heaven and Earth....murderers too?
The prophecy doesn't say that there will be sinners in the new heavens and earth, it says that no sinner will enter therein. All people will have been saved either by faith now or by the fiery judgments of God to come.
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Old 01-30-2010, 05:08 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,318,263 times
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Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Psalms 102:25-28 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. 26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: 27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end. 28 The children of thy servants shall continue, and their seed shall be established before thee.

This prophecy of David sure sounds like it is referring to the physical earth, doesn't it? As always, the New Testament gives us insight and illumination to the Old Testament. In Hebrews 1, we find the writer quoting this prophecy word for word.

Hebrews 1:10-12 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

The writer of Hebrews tells us that the fulfillment of these is related to the establishment of the eternal kingdom of Christ.

Hebrews 1:8-9 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Isaiah 51:13-16 And you forget the LORD your Maker, Who stretched out the heavens And laid the foundations of the earth; You have feared continually every day Because of the fury of the oppressor, When he has prepared to destroy. And where is the fury of the oppressor? 14 The captive exile hastens, that he may be loosed, That he should not die in the pit, And that his bread should not fail. 15 But I am the LORD your God, Who divided the sea whose waves roared; The LORD of hosts is His name. 16 And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, 'You are My people.'"

The time of planting the heavens and laying the foundation of the earth that is referred to here, was performed by God when He divided the sea (ver. 15) and gave the law (ver. 16), and said to Zion, "Thou art my people; that is, when He took the children of Israel out of Egypt, and formed them in the wilderness into a covenant nation. He planted the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth: that is, brought forth order, and government. If the destruction of heaven and earth were to be taken literally in all of the Old Testament passages, it would mean that heaven and earth were destroyed a bunch of times. This language is clearly not literal, but figurative and apocalyptic.

The heavens and the earth (Old Covenant Israel) would perish, but Christ and his throne would remain for ever and ever. The superiority of Christ over angels is shown in that he created the world wherein they were ministering spirits.

Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire."

Hebrews 2:1-5 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? 5 For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels.

Verse 2 speaks of the Sinaic covenant which was given by angels and compares it to the New covenant salvation that Christ brings. In Hebrews 2:5, the world to come would not be in subjection to angels, in contrast to the world that then was, which would pass away.

How is the world or the heavens and earth of old going to perish? David said they shall, "wax old like a garment," and then they would be "changed." Is it just a coincidence that the Bible speaks of the passing away of the old covenant using the same language?

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Why would God destroy a creation that He called "VERY GOOD"?

Sorry Ironmaw, but my exegsis surpasses your inability to address the scripture in its proper context.
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Old 01-30-2010, 05:10 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,318,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
The prophecy doesn't say that there will be sinners in the new heavens and earth, it says that no sinner will enter therein. All people will have been saved either by faith now or by the fiery judgments of God to come.
Now that is pure assumption with ZERO backing. I says that they wil not enter into the city, but they are outside, so they still exist.

And if all the people are saved, then why are they there in the first place, after its creation? Your interpretation is flawed to its core.
You are performing serious hurdles to get to that interpretation. To be quite honest, your statement alone here, discredits you greatly.

Stick to the text and context.
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Old 01-30-2010, 08:47 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,241,957 times
Reputation: 893
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Psalms 102:25-28 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. 26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: 27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end. 28 The children of thy servants shall continue, and their seed shall be established before thee.

This prophecy of David sure sounds like it is referring to the physical earth, doesn't it? As always, the New Testament gives us insight and illumination to the Old Testament. In Hebrews 1, we find the writer quoting this prophecy word for word.

Hebrews 1:10-12 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

The writer of Hebrews tells us that the fulfillment of these is related to the establishment of the eternal kingdom of Christ.

Hebrews 1:8-9 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Isaiah 51:13-16 And you forget the LORD your Maker, Who stretched out the heavens And laid the foundations of the earth; You have feared continually every day Because of the fury of the oppressor, When he has prepared to destroy. And where is the fury of the oppressor? 14 The captive exile hastens, that he may be loosed, That he should not die in the pit, And that his bread should not fail. 15 But I am the LORD your God, Who divided the sea whose waves roared; The LORD of hosts is His name. 16 And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, 'You are My people.'"

The time of planting the heavens and laying the foundation of the earth that is referred to here, was performed by God when He divided the sea (ver. 15) and gave the law (ver. 16), and said to Zion, "Thou art my people; that is, when He took the children of Israel out of Egypt, and formed them in the wilderness into a covenant nation. He planted the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth: that is, brought forth order, and government. If the destruction of heaven and earth were to be taken literally in all of the Old Testament passages, it would mean that heaven and earth were destroyed a bunch of times. This language is clearly not literal, but figurative and apocalyptic.

The heavens and the earth (Old Covenant Israel) would perish, but Christ and his throne would remain for ever and ever. The superiority of Christ over angels is shown in that he created the world wherein they were ministering spirits.

Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire."

Hebrews 2:1-5 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? 5 For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels.

Verse 2 speaks of the Sinaic covenant which was given by angels and compares it to the New covenant salvation that Christ brings. In Hebrews 2:5, the world to come would not be in subjection to angels, in contrast to the world that then was, which would pass away.

How is the world or the heavens and earth of old going to perish? David said they shall, "wax old like a garment," and then they would be "changed." Is it just a coincidence that the Bible speaks of the passing away of the old covenant using the same language?

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Why would God destroy a creation that He called "VERY GOOD"?

Sorry Ironmaw, but my exegsis surpasses your inability to address the scripture in its proper context.
Your exegesis does nothing to persuade me in the slightest, so i feel no need to answer it. I think most people will see something different than you anyways ... I don't like to debate people for the sake of debating, it causes contention. I try to state my beliefs as being my opinion, and when someone is constantly telling me i'm wrong without even being able to consider that their own position may be in error, then it is a one sided discussion, and i'm not interested in being preached to by you or anyone else. Especially knowing that i disagree with you on almost every thing pertaining to our beliefs to begin with. How many times have we been over these things? I'm not going to be dragged into an never ending debate with you on these things. I answer the things i feel inspired to answer, and other things i simply allow others to deal with. Just because i don't play by your rules of conduct and debate doesn't mean i don't have answers for you, often i choose not to say anything because i see your "exegesis" as being evidently in error for all to see ... I don't believe it makes any sense to begin with personally. I understand what your getting at, but it is all a house of cards to begin with if you ask me, and its obvious.
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Old 01-30-2010, 09:03 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,318,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Your exegesis does nothing to persuade me in the slightest, so i feel no need to answer it. I think most people will see something different than you anyways ... I don't like to debate people for the sake of debating, it causes contention. I try to state my beliefs as being my opinion, and when someone is constantly telling me i'm wrong without even being able to consider that their own position may be in error, then it is a one sided discussion, and i'm not interested in being preached to by you or anyone else. Especially knowing that i disagree with you on almost every thing pertaining to our beliefs to begin with. How many times have we been over these things? I'm not going to be dragged into an never ending debate with you on these things. I answer the things i feel inspired to answer, and other things i simply allow others to deal with. Just because i don't play by your rules of conduct and debate doesn't mean i don't have answers for you, often i choose not to say anything because i see your "exegesis" as being evidently in error for all to see ... I don't believe it makes any sense to begin with personally. I understand what your getting at, but it is all a house of cards to begin with if you ask me, and its obvious.
On the contrary. Your eisegesis is evident. What I am most ineterested in is not your opinion, but the counter postion of your opinion, and that is what the readers of the forum need to read. Both sides. let them decide.

The above is just another decision on the futurist's part, to not address the scriptures put forth in an exegetical manner.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Contention is good. It develops sound doctrine so that no sheep, fall away.
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Old 01-30-2010, 09:17 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,241,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
On the contrary. Your eisegesis is evident. What I am most ineterested in is not your opinion, but the counter postion of your opinion, and that is what the readers of the forum need to read. Both sides. let them decide.

The above is just another decision on the futurist's part, to not address the scriptures put forth in an exegetical manner.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Contention is good. It develops sound doctrine so that no sheep, fall away.

The way you communicate leaves allot to be desired for friendly debate.
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Old 01-30-2010, 09:25 PM
 
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1Ti 6:4
"he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and word-striving, out of which doth come envy, strife, evil-speakings, evil-surmisings," ...

Jam 3:16
"For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work."
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Old 01-31-2010, 12:20 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,318,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
The way you communicate leaves allot to be desired for friendly debate.
I think you need to look in the mirror and clean up your vision before you address me with a judgemental tone. The mere fact that I teach you, and you are an unwilling student, puts you in the position to take things too personally. That is fine. I attack your view and the interpretation you present Ironmaw, not you personally as a Christian. It takes a sound debator to differentiate the two. In which you appear to lack systematically, hence, your comments.

I apologize if I have attacked you personally in the past.
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Old 01-31-2010, 12:37 PM
 
Location: East Coast
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15verily I say to you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city. Matthew 10

Why didn't Jesus just say it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah than that city when they are both thrown in the lake of fire, if he was talking about the severity of rejecting him ? .

Last edited by pcamps; 01-31-2010 at 01:15 PM..
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Old 01-31-2010, 03:44 PM
 
Location: Out of Florida........
4,309 posts, read 5,480,084 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dipidydoodaa View Post
i was reading in another thread where the lake of fire was mention, having questions and not wanting to highjack the other thread, thought i would ask the questions in a new thread. i want to take them one at a time for clarity to each:

i read in Rev20:
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.



would it be safe to assume that the lake of fire is where the eternal punishment will take place?

YES! Not only is it safe to assume that, it is safe to believe exactly what the Good Book says, ALL OF IT!......................................FINAL ANSWER!!
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