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Old 10-14-2009, 04:17 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,395,647 times
Reputation: 1690

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dipidydoodaa View Post
i was reading in another thread where the lake of fire was mention, having questions and not wanting to highjack the other thread, thought i would ask the questions in a new thread. i want to take them one at a time for clarity to each:

i read in Rev20:
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.



would it be safe to assume that the lake of fire is where the eternal punishment will take place?
Question: What are you being punished for?

Perhaps that will shed light on the answer you seek.
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Old 10-14-2009, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 845,004 times
Reputation: 205
I was less than five years old when I understood the difference between "finite" and "infinite" from a sermon my dad preached. When I was going to sleep that night I thought, "How can a finite man deserve an infinite reward?" It didn't make any sense to me; but, they taught that if your sins weren't forgiven you'd have to pay what you owed, you'd deserve ceaseless torture for ever. Even though that infinity was a contradition to being finite, I remember turning over and thinking, "I guess it's just something you have to believe" before I went to sleep. I don't see any way out of it yet today.

For years, because that was what I was taught and the people around me believed it, I believed in a hell of screaming torture for ever for most people. But, if anyone can think about it for a little while, I don't see how they can think it makes any sense. We humans can't ever do enough evil to deserve that. It would make God unjust. If you've been born again and, even more so, if you've been filled with the Holy Spirit, I don't believe you can say that the experience of Jesus that the Holy Spirit has given you is that He is a Master Torturer, torturing countless victims without cease and no hope escape all the while telling them, "I love you." I don't believe you can in good conscience expect God to make into that image, that kind of being either.

I know, we're supposed to believe what is written. That has always decided it for me. Years ago I didn't realize I hadn't verified it for myself. I hadn't learned to use concordances. I thought I was just believing what the Bible taught; but, here again, people are going on hearsay and not looking carefully, even at our English Bible. Since it was mentioned earlier, here's an example when eternal doesn't mean eternal: "...like the earth which he hath established for ever..." (Ps 78:69, AV) The Scripture says, "the first heaven and the first earth were passed away..." (Rv 21:1) There are may other examples. The problem is English translations, not the original language text. (I'm not using many examples because I wonder if even the little I write here will be read. Some have even bragged they don't read these answers because they believe they're false before they know what they contain and they don't want to be deceived, which shutting up their ears gurantees they'll be deceived.)

Like the phrase, "everlasting punishment" (only in Mt 25:46, AV) doesn't speak of ceaseless torture for ever as many thoughtlessly assume. If it was continuous and for ever the English would say, "everlasting punishing." David, because he had bloody hands, was not allowed by God to build the temple. That was a permanent punishment he couldn't get out of. Looking into the Greek it evaporates, since everlasting here is the word "eon" of which there are at least five, all of which end. The word order isn't right for an eternal torture reading either. Actually, it is "discipline" or "chastening," so the phrase should read "chastening eonian," or, if more explained, "discipline appropriate to the age in which it occurs."

Christians believe we not only experience and are changed by the real God that Jesus taught about; but, that the real God gave us a written revelation, The Holy Bible, which is authoratative for what we believe and do. It was given in the Hebrew and Greek languages. If we care to know what He has communicated to us we must search the language he used. The is very easy now with free Bible software. If you are unable or unwilling study, you should not pretend you are speaking with authority. Stay with what God reveals to you and leave the rest alone. Otherwise, you can get in trouble with God. I assure you, there's nobody else you should fear, only God.

Last edited by JamesMRohde; 10-14-2009 at 06:57 PM..
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Old 10-14-2009, 06:41 PM
 
420 posts, read 1,094,842 times
Reputation: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
What he is saying is clean up your life while you're alive....pick up your cross daily and follow him....be perfect as the Father is perfect...before you leave this physical life because if you don't you will be punished and purified of all sin after. Is Jesus not the refiners fire? We are all tried in the fire during our lives....some of us learn the lesson while alive and then some of don't and pay the consequences later on.
Even though I had technical problems, you can see my preaching videos on youtube 'Prophet D.Howard Jr" I talk on a wide range of subjects.
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Old 10-15-2009, 06:26 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,489,748 times
Reputation: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by dipidydoodaa View Post

would it be safe to assume that the lake of fire is where the eternal punishment will take place?
Yes...

But as for the question, "What is this talking about?"...well thats a matter of debate.

I view most if not all the stuff we read in the book of Revelation as to be rich in the use of the symbol....Nothing is as it appears in the book of the Bible.

Im not even sure what "Hell's Ever Burning Flames" means in reality.

The one thing that is clear to me...The lake of fire is bad...and it's forever.
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Old 10-15-2009, 07:05 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,121,611 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
I was less than five years old when I understood the difference between "finite" and "infinite" from a sermon my dad preached. When I was going to sleep that night I thought, "How can a finite man deserve an infinite reward?" It didn't make any sense to me; but, they taught that if your sins weren't forgiven you'd have to pay what you owed, you'd deserve ceaseless torture for ever. Even though that infinity was a contradition to being finite, I remember turning over and thinking, "I guess it's just something you have to believe" before I went to sleep. I don't see any way out of it yet today.

For years, because that was what I was taught and the people around me believed it, I believed in a hell of screaming torture for ever for most people. But, if anyone can think about it for a little while, I don't see how they can think it makes any sense. We humans can't ever do enough evil to deserve that. It would make God unjust. If you've been born again and, even more so, if you've been filled with the Holy Spirit, I don't believe you can say that the experience of Jesus that the Holy Spirit has given you is that He is a Master Torturer, torturing countless victims without cease and no hope escape all the while telling them, "I love you." I don't believe you can in good conscience expect God to make into that image, that kind of being either.

I know, we're supposed to believe what is written. That has always decided it for me. Years ago I didn't realize I hadn't verified it for myself. I hadn't learned to use concordances. I thought I was just believing what the Bible taught; but, here again, people are going on hearsay and not looking carefully, even at our English Bible. Since it was mentioned earlier, here's an example when eternal doesn't mean eternal: "...like the earth which he hath established for ever..." (Ps 78:69, AV) The Scripture says, "the first heaven and the first earth were passed away..." (Rv 21:1) There are may other examples. The problem is English translations, not the original language text. (I'm not using many examples because I wonder if even the little I write here will be read. Some have even bragged they don't read these answers because they believe they're false before they know what they contain and they don't want to be deceived, which shutting up their ears gurantees they'll be deceived.)

Like the phrase, "everlasting punishment" (only in Mt 25:46, AV) doesn't speak of ceaseless torture for ever as many thoughtlessly assume. If it was continuous and for ever the English would say, "everlasting punishing." David, because he had bloody hands, was not allowed by God to build the temple. That was a permanent punishment he couldn't get out of. Looking into the Greek it evaporates, since everlasting here is the word "eon" of which there are at least five, all of which end. The word order isn't right for an eternal torture reading either. Actually, it is "discipline" or "chastening," so the phrase should read "chastening eonian," or, if more explained, "discipline appropriate to the age in which it occurs."

Christians believe we not only experience and are changed by the real God that Jesus taught about; but, that the real God gave us a written revelation, The Holy Bible, which is authoratative for what we believe and do. It was given in the Hebrew and Greek languages. If we care to know what He has communicated to us we must search the language he used. The is very easy now with free Bible software. If you are unable or unwilling study, you should not pretend you are speaking with authority. Stay with what God reveals to you and leave the rest alone. Otherwise, you can get in trouble with God. I assure you, there's nobody else you should fear, only God.
I absolutely agree with you. If people would do a lot more studying and a lot less "literal" reading...they would understand the concepts and the spiritual message Jesus imparted to us.

It's easy for Christians to take passages like "eternal punishment" and say all unbelievers will be tormented forever. But, do they take the passages that say...deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me, follow my commandments, love your neighbor as yourself, be perfect as my father is perfect...seriously? I think not...and I've read a lot of evidence of this right here on these boards. Being a Christian is more than just saying some "I believe Jesus is my Lord and Savior" prayer...it's about truly denying yourself, your desires, your feelings, etc. living with the intention that all you would do only gives God the glory and giving God your all...living for Him and Him alone 100%...not belittling someone because they believe differently than you do. I've seen a lot of strife on this board over "man made doctrine"....the things above are the only things that will truly allow us to enter in God's Kingdom and not everyone gets the same revelation at the same time about what is man's doctrine and what is God's....some people are still getting "milk" while others have moved on to "solid food". We need to get back to basics of how we are told to live....IN LOVE....this fulfills all of God's commands and makes life soooooo much sweeter!
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Old 10-15-2009, 07:09 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,489,748 times
Reputation: 241
I think of the Lost burning forever in hell as this...

That it is the "result" of your life story.
It is the "ending" to how you lived your life.
It is the "wages" you earned with the life you lived.
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Old 10-15-2009, 07:43 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,121,611 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
I think of the Lost burning forever in hell as this...

That it is the "result" of your life story.
It is the "ending" to how you lived your life.
It is the "wages" you earned with the life you lived.
That's a very sad outlook to have.
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Old 10-15-2009, 07:53 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,489,748 times
Reputation: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
That's a very sad outlook to have.
Thanks for sharing your "feelings"....
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Florida
580 posts, read 632,605 times
Reputation: 149
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."
Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Romans 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
2Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them anexample of what is going to happen to the ungodly;



Everyone lives forever, either death in hellfire, total separation of God or life everlasting with God. Eternal life or Eternal fire.
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,710,052 times
Reputation: 843
Quote:
Everyone lives forever, either death in hellfire


what a blatant contradiction in only half a sentence
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