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Old 10-16-2009, 05:35 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 844,821 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
I think of the Lost burning forever in hell as this...

That it is the "result" of your life story.
It is the "ending" to how you lived your life.
It is the "wages" you earned with the life you lived.
There are various ends that may be contemplated. I can assure you that God will have the last word. None of us writes the story of our own lives. It is the one who various times in Scripture is called "the Savior of all" who determines the destiny of all mankind. You can better understand His attitude when you consider He suffered and died for your sins.

"For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: that all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father." (John 5:21-23, AV)

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Pete3:9, AV)
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Old 10-17-2009, 01:34 PM
 
10,187 posts, read 10,555,957 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
So eternal doesn't really mean eternal?
jimmiej, you're opening up a gigantic can of worms with that question. That's why lifesigns just gave you the hand sign. It means, "I am NOT going to get sucked into another endless thread of the meaning of anion vs anonion vs onion vs garlic." 50% of all the threads on this board are contentious arguments....oooops, I mean "debates" on whether man burns for eternity (ET--eternal torment) or just temporarily (UR---universal redemption). Hang out here long enough and you'll find that out for yourself.
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Old 10-17-2009, 01:43 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,488,995 times
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Eternal Life, means forever....

There is not a chance that eternal Life has an ending.....

Eternal Life has no limits, no ending, no breaks...there is no change in it, nor does Eternal Lifehave the ability to change...
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Old 10-17-2009, 03:42 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,392,881 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Eternal Life, means forever....

There is not a chance that eternal Life has an ending.....

Eternal Life has no limits, no ending, no breaks...there is no change in it, nor does Eternal Lifehave the ability to change...
Except death that is.. cuz we all die.. but that's just a short break in eternal life...
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Old 10-17-2009, 03:46 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,392,881 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post

"For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: that all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father." (John 5:21-23, AV)
I was just reading this:

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

John 12:47 "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

So the Father judges no man and the Son judges no man... so who judges those who will be sent into the lake of fire?
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Old 10-17-2009, 04:37 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,488,995 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
so who judges those who will be sent into the lake of fire?
Matthew 25:31Ė46 (WEB):
"But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory.

Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
...
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
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Old 10-17-2009, 04:49 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,289,698 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post

I read the paper, and most, if not all the verses here were fulfilled by Christ's blood and the judgement of His apostate bride. Nothing else.

This importation of English into the ancient language is contrary to any proper hermeneutical study.
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Old 10-17-2009, 07:41 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 844,821 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercy777 View Post
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."
Isn't "torment" mental anguish and "torture" physical suffering? Nevertheless, it doesn't affect the core of our contention since this verse says nothing about the duration of torment, only the smoke from it. Consider the time related information here anyway. "For ever and ever" is redundant. There is nothing longer than "for ever." The King James translators distinguished between "for ever," a Greek eon, singular, meaning an "age" of time and "for ever and ever," for "ages of the ages," two plurals, the last two ages that are the outcome of the previous ages. Really, if you can't admit that the written revelation the God of Jesus Christ gave us is in Greek and Hebrew in the originals you're so willfully ignorant as to be dangerous. You don't have to be a master of those languages to use excellent free software like www.blueletterbible.org

The scope of the judgment here is limited by the text to only those, "Who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name...(v.11)...in his forehead, or in his hand" (v.9.) This fact alone is sufficient to remove it from any proof concerning what is often referred to as "the final disposition of the wicked." These are only a limited group at a specific time. It is injustice to what is written to apply it to whoever has no part in the first resurrection. In fairness I would admit some allegorically regard this "mark" to be on all humanity, except Jesus, until they are regenerated by the Spirit of God. That would possibly seem more plausible prior to the 20th century. Now, with a world wide web (like a snare come upon the whole earth?)
implantable transponders and the like it seems too much of warning of merely implementing certain technology we already have up and running.

Focus carefully on the words of interest to Eternal Torturers: "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night..." (Rev 14:11) It doesn't say their torment is for ever and ever; only, "the smoke from their torment ascends," (lit., for the eons of the eons, which are the last two eons.) If I smoked in my dad's car, he'd smell it "for ever." I'm sure we couldn't get the smell out, though the cigarette only lasted a minute. Day and night will cease when the earth is burnt up. Day and night are confined to a limited duration because the earth is not for ever. "...the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." (2 Pet 3:10)

Really, this portion of Scripture doesn't teach ceaseless torture for ever for anything or anyone. Like all the other supposed evidence, something glimpsed out of the corner of the eye that tradition of men says is such and such, which, when looked into directly says something else and when searched out more deeply in the original languages is even farther removed from the evil imaginations of men, the very thing that brought on the wrath of God in The Great Deluge.
__________________________________________________ ______________________
(Hopefully, more to come as time allows. I hope I'm not wasting my time and you who needs this actually read it. "We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error." [1 John 4:6, AV] Jesus says, "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word." [John 8:43, AV])

Last edited by JamesMRohde; 10-17-2009 at 07:56 PM..
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Old 10-17-2009, 07:54 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 844,821 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercy777 View Post
Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Who considers the devil to be a man? At the most, racial dispensationalists would see, only two people here, the false prophet and the antichrist who is called the beast, unless some artificial intelligence, some form of computer is the beast. Then they only see one. Can you find anywhere the beast is said to be a man? I admit that preterists have a good case that the beast was Nero whose full name equals "666." That understanding would re-orient the whole interpretation this passage. Even "the false prophet," if you examine the five places that phrase occurs, it seems the Biblical evidence would have us saying it is a spirit along with John, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God..." (1Jn 4:1-2)

There is no direct word in Scripture that I can find stating even one human being is to be identified with these three. Certainly it is not the entirety of those who have no part in the first resurrection who are in view here, so it just doesn't count as far as proving their perpetual pain as many ignorantly propose. Nothing definitive in this passage clearly supports even one human being as in the the lake of fire.

The Book of Revelation is the most symbolic book in the Bible. I understand the beast as the animalistic impulses of the flesh of Adam, the false prophet as the religious impulses of the flesh of Adam, and the devil as the adversarial spirit that animates the flesh of Adam. God will deliver all mankind from its Adamic flesh nature: beastial, religious, and adversarial.

The Adversary, the wild beast and the false prophet, these three entities (Rv 20:10) that work through the carnal nature, and the two things, death and hades (the unperceivable realm resulting from death) are the only things, five in total, that are ever said in the Bible to be in the lake of fire. (Rv 20:14) All you have to do to prove me wrong is find only one verse to quote to the contrary.
__________________________________________________ ______________________
(Hopefully, more to come as time allows. I hope I'm not wasting my time and you who needs this actually read it. "We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error." [1 John 4:6, AV] Jesus says, "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word." [John 8:43, AV])
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Old 10-17-2009, 07:57 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,488,995 times
Reputation: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
Isn't "torment" mental anguish and "torture" physical suffering?
well,,,Im not too sure...

I think you can be in "torment" while you are being"tortured"

Im not sure that the Bible tells us that one is always mental and the other is physical.

HOWEVER....from the story of Lazarus and the Rich man, you getting the clear impression from Jesus that he was talking about a very real physical pain and anguish beyond imagination
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