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Old 10-17-2009, 08:29 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
well,,,Im not too sure...

I think you can be in "torment" while you are being"tortured"

Im not sure that the Bible tells us that one is always mental and the other is physical.

HOWEVER....from the story of Lazarus and the Rich man, you getting the clear impression from Jesus that he was talking about a very real physical pain and anguish beyond imagination
They were having a discussion there in hades. Doesn't look at all like ceaseless torture for ever advocates describe. They had all died, so none of them were in possession of physicality of any sort...dead...the body was left behind. The rich man showed the chastening was working by being concerned for his bothers and not only himself.

Nobody is staying there, however, which is the important point for now. Everybody will be resurrected, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order," (1 Cor 15:22-23, AV) and death, being abolished (vs.26,) is said to be cast into the lake of fire along with hades, a state that results from death. (cp., Rev 20:14) Think about that, what sort of realm this speaks of, when you try to come out of the traditions of men that make void the word of God into a scripturally legitimate conception of the lake of fire, something I hope you are seeking to do.
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Old 10-17-2009, 08:40 PM
 
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I like the attitude of Abraham...
"Sorry Charlie, you are in hell forever. So get used to it"
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Old 10-17-2009, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
I like the attitude of Abraham...
"Sorry Charlie, you are in hell forever. So get used to it"
Very true...they have heard Moses, the Prophets, Jesus and the apostles. Just turn on the tv, pick up a Gideons....the word is everywhere now. No excuses.
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Old 10-17-2009, 10:37 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 844,157 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
Eternal Life, means forever....

There is not a chance that eternal Life has an ending.....

Eternal Life has no limits, no ending, no breaks...there is no change in it, nor does Eternal Lifehave the ability to change...
This is speculation based on the traditions of men rather than the word of God which gets invalidated by these reasonings.

Jesus says, "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:2-3, AV)

Not duration, but quality, the life of God that is being known by His own, that is "eonian life." It is His life to the extent that it is being revealed in this present (Greek) eonor "age." There is a certain degree to which we are granted to partake of the Divine nature in this period of time. It will be superseded in the ages to come. The glory to come is greater than we can as yet conceive. Our experience and knowledge of God will always be increasing. The revelation of God and ourselves in Him will always be unfolding. We will continue to ascend with Him.

And how many does Jesus give this Divine life to? How many has God given Him? Scripture clearly says. "Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel and girded himself..." (John 13:3-4, AV) and it goes on to teach of "foot washing." "Things" was added by the translators. It literally reads: "...the Father has given all into his hands..." which is attested to elsewhere in Scripture with similar words as here, as well as other ways of saying it.

As far as what the word underlying "eternal" as a translation, the last verse in Matthew's Gospel uses it, only here the translators put the word "world" over it. "...lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." If they were faithful to what God originally said it would be "the end of the eon, or 'age.'" (There are a minimum of five ages indicated in Scripture, all of which end.) If the translators were consistent, using the word eternal here, it would read: "the end of the eternity." That indicates how misleading and inconsistent the English use of a concept of endless time is when applied to the various distinctions the Holy Spirit made in the Greek concerning various long periods of time, the eons or "ages." In the original there are phrases like: (two singulars) "the age of the age," (a singular and a plural) "the age of the ages," and (two plurals) "the ages of the ages," all of which are not mistakes made by the Holy Spirit Who inspired the writing of His own word. When they all get covered up with some version of endless time in English I think what is happening is described in Romans 1:18-19: suppressing, or, "retaining the truth in injustice..."

I hope this helps to dispel the fog of confusion surrounding these matters. Let me know what in particular you may care to examine with me.
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Old 10-17-2009, 10:51 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 844,157 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
I like the attitude of Abraham...
"Sorry Charlie, you are in hell forever. So get used to it"
When people are raised from the dead they are no longer in hades which is the state corresponding to death. Everybody comes out of hades because God will abolish both. All will be reurrected.

Part of the confusion may be the thought hades is the same as the lake of fire. A phrase occuring only 5 time in the most symbolic book in the Bible, that of Revelation, "the lake of fire" is never called hell in our English versions. Scripture says, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Rv 20:14, AV) Saying hell was cast into hell would make no sense. Hades, gehenna and tartarus are not made equivalent anywhere in the original language of the Scripture. The Holy Spirit intended to speak of various things by using words that are spelled diffently. English pasted on the one term "hell" as though there was only one thing being spoken of. This does injustice to God's Word. I wonder what correction people who do these mutilations of Scripture on purpose will undergo.

And, Abraham did not say what you attribute to him.
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Old 10-17-2009, 11:08 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
So what is this Jesus is speaking of?

Matthew 18

8If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
While "eternal," meaning "time without end" is not the right translation, in English it is the fire that is being said to be "eternal," not how long and in what way something is in the fire. Much more could be said.

One thing is Jesus only spoke of the garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom, or "gehenna." It has quite a history and may be looked up in a concordance for some remarkable things pertinent to this matter. The record has 12 occurences of gehenna in Jesus words, only 8 if consideration is made for repetition between the 4 Gospels. He never mentioned hades, tartarus, or, what is never called hell in the English, the lake of fire. Paul, who wrote, what was it? 3/4 of the New Testament? never mentioned any of them once and he said "I have fully preached the gospel of Christ." (Romans 15:19)

To cut off your right hand or poke out your left eye would be a sin according to the law of God. Jesus would not advocate defying His Father and, as He says He always does, He was speaking parables. He uses metaphor to reveal spiritual truth.

These are Bible facts I'm sharing here and elsewhere. The actual words of Scripture are what should determine what we believe and confess. We need to check out if something is written or not, then disciple ourselves accordingly to obtain approval from God.
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Old 10-18-2009, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
When people are raised from the dead they are no longer in hades which is the state corresponding to death. Everybody comes out of hades because God will abolish both. All will be reurrected.

This is a huge problem among universalists, as they are in the same trap as the futurist...the belief of this "resurrection" haven't having taken place yet. Once everyone grasps the timing of it, things will change.

For the record...past event.....70 AD.

The resurrection of the dead and living....the twinkling of an eye..... the incorruptible has been put on by all those in Jesus Christ....that moment, where the change took place; Hades was destroyed forever, along with Sin and Death - have been placed in the Lake of Fire. This is the destination for all that deny Him, where sin, death, and hades, the devil, false prophet, Beast, Hitler, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot, etc etc etc are currently in stasis...forever...eternally.

And please, don't throw the Aion card at me. Refrain from importing the English into the Ancient language. That's a no no, if you want me to regard the arguement as valid.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 10-18-2009 at 12:18 PM..
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Old 10-18-2009, 03:24 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
This is a huge problem among universalists, as they are in the same trap as the futurist...the belief of this "resurrection" haven't having taken place yet. Once everyone grasps the timing of it, things will change.

For the record...past event.....70 AD.

The resurrection of the dead and living....the twinkling of an eye..... the incorruptible has been put on by all those in Jesus Christ....that moment, where the change took place; Hades was destroyed forever, along with Sin and Death - have been placed in the Lake of Fire. This is the destination for all that deny Him, where sin, death, and hades, the devil, false prophet, Beast, Hitler, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot, etc etc etc are currently in stasis...forever...eternally.

And please, don't throw the Aion card at me. Refrain from importing the English into the Ancient language. That's a no no, if you want me to regard the arguement as valid.
And in 70 AD when this all happened you could have someone standing next to you and never know that anything had changed as far as the body.... There was salvation and the "changed" body.. two separate things.

"changed body" refers to eternal life ie knowing God not to salvation.

That is my preterist universalism stance.

Salvation is grace and grace is given in proportion to sin. All have sinned, and all are given grace...saved. The "changed body" I assume is our willful acceptance of God's word but has nothing to do with salvation, that was done on the cross.
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Old 10-18-2009, 03:55 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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The circular arguement is common I see in regards to the "salvation" term and event. Christ "offered" salvation through His blood. This is conditional, and is in direct line with the sin "offering" in the Old Testament. Atonement is nothing without faith. That was the condition in the Old COvenant. The High Priest initiatedthe sin offering, but it was the faith that of those accepted the sin offering that received the atonement. If you didn't, you did not recieve any atonement. If one didn't receive that offering, then they are not included in the blessings of Abraham, but those that accepted this offering, then they are included.

Revelation 20:10, "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

I think this is a form of hyperbole to express that God will never change his mind about his judgment on a people. Here are some examples of everlasting curses:

Isaiah 34:10 It will not be quenched night and day; its smoke will rise forever. From generation to generation it will lie desolate; no one will ever pass through it again.

Does Edom's smoke still rise from being desolated centuries ago? And certainly people have passed through it - but not like it had in its glory.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."
Rev 18:18 When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim, 'Was there ever a city like this great city?'
Rev 19:3 And again they shouted: "Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever."

Since Jerusalem was figuratively called Sodom, Egypt and Babylon in Revelation, it's clear that the city in Revelation 18 was Jerusalem "for the way she treated the apostles and saints" (Rev. 18:20, 24). So the smoke of the city rose forever and ever, smoke comes from fire, so the fire would also be unrelenting - not in time/space but in judgment. That judgment would never be deferred by God. It would be an everlasting decision that was just. Surely Jerusalem has not burned for 2,000 years now as the land is even populated today. So it's a hyperbole to express a lasting JUDGMENT, not a lasting EVENT.

Revelation 20:14, "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire." The lake of fire is not a literal place, but that the lake of fire is another name for the second death? The second death being eternal separation from God. Not annihilation and not in a literal "lake of fire/brimstone" but a state of being that is tormenting beyond forever, separated from yet aware of God and Jesus Christ.

Look at this verse as well in regards to the lake of fire being another way of saying the second death:

Revelation 21:8, "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

The purifying event of the lake of fire is conditional an has an end. Everyone who experiences it will know who Jesus is. That is for sure. But they will not take part in the blessings from the offer they received in this life. Their judgement is not eternal, however their separation is.
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Old 10-18-2009, 04:32 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,486,442 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
They were having a discussion there in hades. Doesn't look at all like ceaseless torture
lets see...
The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment
"In Torment
"....
Not had been,,,,
In means he was currently in torment while he begged for one drop of water...


"send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire."

I am in agony in this fire....

He said "I am"...
not I was.
not "I have been"...

I am" this means that as the person spoke he was in agony, so this was not on a coffee break when they spoke.

I dont see any sign that this had ended, nor do I see any hint that it could ever end...
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