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Old 10-18-2009, 05:52 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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The "Cleansing Fire" of the land that prepares the New Heaven and Earth. With the decreating of the old Heavens and Earth going on in Revelation, the Lake Of Fire was the purging fire Isaiah and the other OT prophets spoke of - and that being localized to that time, which all pointed to the ed of the Old Covenant system, cleansing the "land" for the New Covenant system. In Revelation 21 and 22, what lies outside of the New Jerusalem city is "liars, sorcerers, etc", "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." in Rev 20:15 pointing to the same subject matter "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Granted Revelation was written concerning the 70 AD event, however the New Heaven and Earth event is perpetual for those that accept the "sin offering" of Jesus Christ seen "In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations."

If people in this world are not a part of the New Jerusalem, they are outside of it. And those that are outside of it, are not written in the book of life, and will experience the second death.

Eternal separation from God.
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Old 10-18-2009, 05:53 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
The circular arguement is common I see in regards to the "salvation" term and event. Christ "offered" salvation through His blood. This is conditional, and is in direct line with the sin "offering" in the Old Testament. Atonement is nothing without faith. That was the condition in the Old COvenant. The High Priest initiatedthe sin offering, but it was the faith that of those accepted the sin offering that received the atonement. If you didn't, you did not recieve any atonement. If one didn't receive that offering, then they are not included in the blessings of Abraham, but those that accepted this offering, then they are included.
Except that Christ brought a better sacrifice one that would atone for the sins of all in one sacrifice...

Hebrews 11:2-4 For by it the men of old gained approval. By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

Hebrews 12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


Quote:
Revelation 20:10, "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

I think this is a form of hyperbole to express that God will never change his mind about his judgment on a people. Here are some examples of everlasting curses:

Isaiah 34:10 It will not be quenched night and day; its smoke will rise forever. From generation to generation it will lie desolate; no one will ever pass through it again.

Does Edom's smoke still rise from being desolated centuries ago? And certainly people have passed through it - but not like it had in its glory.
The people of that Edom are dead and many people unrelated are living there now... how is that smoke still rising?

Quote:
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."
Rev 18:18 When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim, 'Was there ever a city like this great city?'
Rev 19:3 And again they shouted: "Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever."

Since Jerusalem was figuratively called Sodom, Egypt and Babylon in Revelation, it's clear that the city in Revelation 18 was Jerusalem "for the way she treated the apostles and saints" (Rev. 18:20, 24). So the smoke of the city rose forever and ever, smoke comes from fire, so the fire would also be unrelenting - not in time/space but in judgment. That judgment would never be deferred by God. It would be an everlasting decision that was just. Surely Jerusalem has not burned for 2,000 years now as the land is even populated today. So it's a hyperbole to express a lasting JUDGMENT, not a lasting EVENT.
This could be true or it could mean that the judgment was given and this is the result. Neither would last forever as we define forever!

Quote:
Revelation 20:14, "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire." The lake of fire is not a literal place, but that the lake of fire is another name for the second death? The second death being eternal separation from God. Not annihilation and not in a literal "lake of fire/brimstone" but a state of being that is tormenting beyond forever, separated from yet aware of God and Jesus Christ.

Look at this verse as well in regards to the lake of fire being another way of saying the second death:

Revelation 21:8, "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

The purifying event of the lake of fire is conditional an has an end. Everyone who experiences it will know who Jesus is. That is for sure. But they will not take part in the blessings from the offer they received in this life. Their judgement is not eternal, however their separation is.
Where does it say separation is eternal?
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Old 10-18-2009, 07:15 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Except that Christ brought a better sacrifice one that would atone for the sins of all in one sacrifice...

Hebrews 11:2-4 For by it the men of old gained approval. By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
....yes by faith in Him. No faith, no atonement.

Quote:
Hebrews 12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Because the sin offering in the Mosaic system did not atone the sins, the faith in God alloted their place in Abraham's Bosom. In Jesus Christ, His blood atones for the sin, but only with faith can the grace be the blessing:

Romans 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all....

The seed.....the seed of Abraham...those in Christ.

KJV Hebrew 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

NKJV For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

..those who are being sanctified...in Christ.


Quote:
Where does it say separation is eternal?
katonjj,

Here is where you and other UR's stumble. The scripture I would provide you would leave you with nothing else but to draw the "AION" card. Like I said earlier, if you do this, I will address it, and it will be swift. But I was hoping to avoid that in hopes of preserving the UR platform for all of you and refrain from lessons in exegesis and hermeneutics in the ancient languages, where UR most certainly lacks any clear and concise path.

Let me start why don't I??...if you want, and you can, for the thousandth time here...I know...it tends to get tiring, but you now have an ample opponent, that will kindly show you where the failure lay.

Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

....go there....I dare you
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:07 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
....yes by faith in Him. No faith, no atonement.
But that was also a tenent of the Old way of atonement that Jesus has made better.... so it is not faith in him that makes one saved it is him that saves.

Quote:
Because the sin offering in the Mosaic system did not atone the sins, the faith in God alloted their place in Abraham's Bosom. In Jesus Christ, His blood atones for the sin, but only with faith can the grace be the blessing:
But that would be the same as the sin offering in the Mosaic system! It could not bring forth the cleansing of the conscience but UR does. My conscience is cleansed! Jesus paid the debt I owed and I am free to live for God!
Quote:
Romans 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all....

The seed.....the seed of Abraham...those in Christ.
Romans 2:28-29 A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

Luke 3:8 "Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father,' for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

Romans 4:16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

We by faith are sons of Abraham but Sons of God because of what Jesus did on the cross.

Quote:
KJV Hebrew 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

NKJV For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

..those who are being sanctified...in Christ.
Yes ... all sinners are in the process of sanctification because Christ died on the cross.

Quote:
katonjj,

Here is where you and other UR's stumble. The scripture I would provide you would leave you with nothing else but to draw the "AION" card. Like I said earlier, if you do this, I will address it, and it will be swift. But I was hoping to avoid that in hopes of preserving the UR platform for all of you and refrain from lessons in exegesis and hermeneutics in the ancient languages, where UR most certainly lacks any clear and concise path.

Let me start why don't I??...if you want, and you can, for the thousandth time here...I know...it tends to get tiring, but you now have an ample opponent, that will kindly show you where the failure lay.

Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

....go there....I dare you
Sure you can go there! I welcome it!

Matt. 25:46.. Life as we know it has an end in death therefore the punishment as we know it must end with death too.

That was simple.
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Old 10-18-2009, 11:02 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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We aren't talking about limited atonement, so why do we keep seeing the same arguement being presented that those that believe in ET, express such a case? Salvation was made so for all men by Jesus Christ, and the scripture plainly states that. But the scripture also plainly states that there is eternal damnantion for those that don't. If the salvation of all men was not secured on the cross but only made available, it would have been far from finished. The battle would have just begun. The hard part would have been getting people to receive the salvation made available to them. People do need to receive it, but Jesus died knowing that they all eventually will because the Father had given them all to Him. I believe that will indeed occurr, however I don't see where you are placing that sinners who die, will eventually come to to Christ after being purified in some temporary torment...ie fire and brimstone. This is in line with the purgatory concept, another stumbling block for those that cannot conceive that the resurrection of the dead and living already took place in the first century.

Vision and prophecy, everlasting righteousness, the annoinitng of the most Holy are all complete with Christ. There is nothing left for mankind except to receive the peropetual blessings of Abraham for those that receive Christ as their Saviour.

Christ came here to destroy the Adamic death for those that believe. Living in the Adamic state is where you and I live right now, in this life, yet our spirit is made alive in Christ...thus never experiencing the second death.

Quote:
Matt. 25:46.. Life as we know it has an end in death therefore the punishment as we know it must end with death too.
The end of death has already been secured by His blood, the New Heaven and Earth, the New Jerusalem....the New Covenant saints will never experience death...you and me.

The above quote you made is a complete assumption based on what? Nothing. Death has been dealt with, as well as everlasting punishment for those who do not believe, as per Rev 20-22, and many, many other scriptures.

1 John 2:2: "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

As many of us have seen, there are ample verses to prove that “Universalism is in the Bible.” However, there are many passages of Scripture which appear to contradict the teaching of Universal Salvation. There is the doctrine of universalism which applies to every one in the world, especially those in Christ, and there is the doctrine that there are those who will not be saved.

There will be a day or time when the entire world worships Christ. But for now, that is not the case.

Rev 22:2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

This Univeralist view is clearly against the teaching of Jesus, who believed in a place of separation from the presence of God which was everlasting (Matthew 25:41, 46). Clearly, in v. 46, Jesus intends for ”eternal punishment” to parallel “eternal life.” So, if eternal punishment does not exist, NEITHER does eternal life. You cannot have it both ways, which is the view that this form of universalism takes.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 10-18-2009 at 11:12 PM..
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:03 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
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In response to the request for where in Scripture "separation" is eternal you say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
katonjj,

Here is where you and other UR's stumble. The scripture I would provide you would leave you with nothing else but to draw the "AION" card. Like I said earlier, if you do this, I will address it, and it will be swift. But I was hoping to avoid that in hopes of preserving the UR platform for all of you and refrain from lessons in exegesis and hermeneutics in the ancient languages, where UR most certainly lacks any clear and concise path.

Let me start why don't I??...if you want, and you can, for the thousandth time here...I know...it tends to get tiring, but you now have an ample opponent, that will kindly show you where the failure lay.

Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

....go there....I dare you
Let us examine Matt 25, specially verses 41 and 46:
32. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left....
41. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43. I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45. Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

It is important to recognized this is about about nations, not individuals. It is also at the wrong time. It is not at The Great White Throne Judgment, or, of The Great Day, or, a non biblical phrase, The Last Judgment, as some call it. This is instead thought by many to be when Jesus is judging the nations as he sets up a more outward display of his kingdom on the earth (the Millennium,) so it isn't at the end. It is about how the USA, Nicaragua, India, Nigeria, China, etc. treat the needy and helpless. Such works are in view and salvation by grace through faith is never mentioned. Some think it pertains to Jesus coming into the kingdom of Hi s Father and, as a sign that the Son of Man had ascended into the heavens and was now reigning in glory, He judged ancient Israel, fulfilling His words, the unthinkable promised abomination that makes desolate: Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD and the people were slain and dispersed. During the subsequent "period of time" or eon (mistranslated "everlasting") the "goat" nations will be "tested" and go on or be discontinued, their peoples taken up into other cultures. A similar occurence is the presence of Jesus judging in His people caused the Roman Empire to dwindle away. So, clearly for preterist or futurist literalists, and most everybody else, it isn't at the end, the last judgment.

Let me digress on that phrase a moment. Concerning our venerable in human tradition but non-existant in the Bible "Last (or, Final) Judgment" here's the closest wording I can find, ocurring 4 times in John 6:39-54: "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (v.39)---Notice then who is lost and who is raised up from Jn 13:3: "Jesus knowing that the Father had given all into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded." (John 13:3-5)---And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." (v.40) "...and I will raise him up at the last day (v44,) "...and I will raise him up at [u]the last day." (v.54) Back to Mt 25...

The translators phrase, "everlasting fire" (Mt 25:41, KJV) is about the fire itself only, nothing about what is experienced nor for how long by any nation being purified in it. Greek word order reveals it is not "eonian fire," (v.41) an age-lasting fire (which would not be forever at any rate,) but "fire eonian," fire pertaining to, appropriate to, or, of a specific age. Fire transfigures. Not an aspect of His wrath, but His intrinsic nature: "Our God is a consuming fire." As born of Him, flames of fire are what the sons are becoming. The goat nations are to go into chastening appropriate to the age in which they were not aligned with the Divine will in the age in which they experience discipline. That works transformation in reference to the impending age or eon, ie., "chastening eonian." (v.46) The word order in the Greek also indicates it is not the chastening that last for an age (which would not be forever if it did,) but qualities appropriate to a certain age or ages define the fire.

We can see when the Greek language God used in these passages is more deeply examined the traditions of man, whose, "Every imagination of the thoughts of his heart is only evil continually" (Gn 8:21) dissolve away even more. That dissolution is to be preferred to dissolving in The Great Deluge solution. Not a form of (Grk.) paideuo, which means: "discipline" or "train", the word (v.46) is here (Grk.) kolazo (kolasis is another form of the same word) in the original that the King James translators used "punishment" to represent. The truth is kolazo, or, kolasis is to be contrasted with the actual "punish" words, (Gk.) timoreo, or, "timoria which contain the roots of both "value" and "lift." "Aristotle distinguishes timoreo (punish) from kolasis (chasten,) which is disciplinary and has reference to the one who suffers, while timoreo is penal and has reference to the satisfaction of the one who inflicts. Plato is in agreement. Scripture bears this out." (cf., CLT, concordance)

Chastening, which has an intended result of bettering the one exercised thereby, is enough to disqualify it for teaching unending "punishing," which is the proper form of punish if the intended meaning was "perpetual, an end in itself." It was not out of ignorance the KJV English here only has "punishment." An example is David was not allowed by God to build the temple because as a man of war, but specially for setting up the murder of a man so he could take his wife, he had bloody hands. This was a permanent judgment, an "everlasting punishment," if you will. Two thirds of the men who worked on the King James translation also worked on The Westminster Catechism, a high point of English language theological writing. In its first edition it had no mention of eternal torment. Through political maneuverings it was inserted in two places two years later. As as anyone who examines the result can plainly see, they did a hatchet job of inserting that idea. There is no flow as in the rest of the text.

One of the great differences between the God of ancient Israel and the gods of the other nations of the world at that time was a social welfare system IEUE instituted to provide for the poor of His people. His law had them tithe (give a tenth) from the increase of the land: flocks, herds, honey, wine, crops and not from anything else, just the land. The corners of the fields were to be left at harvest so the poor could come and glean. This was part of God's glory among the nations. There were no jails. The over 500 references to "the poor" placed them into a relation to God as those called "righteous." His ear was specially attuned to their cry. There is so much more. (To digress again: it should be mentioned there is nothing in the New Testament advocating any "church" tithe. Once the New Covenant was cut through the death of Christ and His triumphant resurrection there are many reasons enumerated to GIVE, however. The thought, "Ten percent for God and ninety percent for me," is in direct contradiction to what Jesus taught, that, "If there be any man among you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.")

We would do well to ask how our own country treats the (illegal) aliens, the strangers. Do we take them in or send them back or put them in a "detention facility?" Those in confinement or prison, without anyone to share with, no visitors; those infirm, whether the aged or mentally or physically infirm; those hungry and malnourished, thirsty; those without adequate covering: clothes and shelter...what are our national policies toward such persons? How much chastening, even if it does yield "the peaceable fruit of righteousness when it is finished," would we be under? How much glory would we enter into subsequent to such judgments? Is this judgment happening now? We need to remember:

1 Timothy 2:1-6 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
1 I am entreating, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, pleadings, thanksgiving be made for all mankind,
2 for kings and all those being in a superior station, that we may be leading a mild and quiet life in all devoutness and gravity,
3 for this is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God,
4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus,
6 Who is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all (the testimony in its own eras)...

Last edited by JamesMRohde; 10-19-2009 at 12:19 AM..
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Old 10-19-2009, 01:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
I think of the Lost burning forever in hell as this...

That it is the "result" of your life story.
It is the "ending" to how you lived your life.
It is the "wages" you earned with the life you lived.

That is funny, then the bible is full of lies because the bible says specifically and in various ways that the wages of sin is death.

Rom 6:23
for the wages of the sin [is] death, and the gift of God [is] life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If God wanted to allow anyone to be lost to the wages of sin he would simply not resurrect them. The fact that he will resurrect the wicked is one of many evidences that the purpose of the fiery judgments of God is to purify the wicked in order that they might live according to the spirit of God.


Fundamentalists teach what is contrary to the bible, they teach that the wages of sin is immortal life in everlasting tortures.


And Annihilationists teach that Death will have victory over most of Gods creation and will last forever where the wicked and unbelievers are concerned. Also contradictory to the bible as the bible teaches that Death will have absolutely no victory and will have no sting when Christ destroys it. The lake of fire is a part of death and therefore it cannot last forever either. Simple deduction and a knowledge of the original Greek completely dispels the myths and twisted fantasies of fundamental Christianity.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-19-2009 at 02:28 AM..
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Old 10-19-2009, 01:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post

Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

So eternal doesn't really mean eternal?

I have come in late on this thread, but i wanted to say that whatever translation you quoted from it is a paraphrase version of the bible. The word there in the greek in Gehenna, and gehenna does not mean eternal. In the Greek it reads ... "geenna pyr" and it should be translated as "fire of the valley of Hinnom" ... Or "Fire of Gehenna". The valley of Hinnom is a place on earth that use to be a trash pit outside the wall of the city of Jerusalem that was kept perpetually on fire or constantly burning. Christ's message in that sermon was to the Jews who were to be judged and the nation of Israel destroyed along with the temple if they refused to accept Christ. In order to better understand this sermon you have to read Romans 7 which teaches that sin is in the members of our corrupt bodies. Because the did not receive Christ they were in fact Judged and when the roman army destroyed them, at which point the carcasses of the Hebrew people who had died in that siege were afterwords throne into the fires of Geheena.
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Old 10-19-2009, 01:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
The "Cleansing Fire" of the land that prepares the New Heaven and Earth. With the decreating of the old Heavens and Earth going on in Revelation, the Lake Of Fire was the purging fire Isaiah and the other OT prophets spoke of - and that being localized to that time, which all pointed to the ed of the Old Covenant system, cleansing the "land" for the New Covenant system. In Revelation 21 and 22, what lies outside of the New Jerusalem city is "liars, sorcerers, etc", "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." in Rev 20:15 pointing to the same subject matter "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Granted Revelation was written concerning the 70 AD event, however the New Heaven and Earth event is perpetual for those that accept the "sin offering" of Jesus Christ seen "In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations."

If people in this world are not a part of the New Jerusalem, they are outside of it. And those that are outside of it, are not written in the book of life, and will experience the second death.

Eternal separation from God.
Yes i will go ahead and say the word there in the Greek is aionios which means of the ages or age during ... etc. It obviously cannot mean eternal because eternal means without beginning or end, and unless you believe that hell and or the lake of fire has always existed without beginning or end then it is obvious that this is a mistranslation. If you think that it should be translated as everlasting then please provide your evidences for this and or whatever other arguments you have and we will just get down to the nittygritty.

Your friend ... God bless and Nemaste.
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Old 10-19-2009, 01:41 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,206,041 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
In response to the request for where in Scripture "separation" is eternal you say:

Let us examine Matt 25, specially verses 41 and 46:
32. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left....
41. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43. I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45. Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

It is important to recognized this is about about nations, not individuals. It is also at the wrong time. It is not at The Great White Throne Judgment, or, of The Great Day, or, a non biblical phrase, The Last Judgment, as some call it. This is instead thought by many to be when Jesus is judging the nations as he sets up a more outward display of his kingdom on the earth (the Millennium,) so it isn't at the end. It is about how the USA, Nicaragua, India, Nigeria, China, etc. treat the needy and helpless. Such works are in view and salvation by grace through faith is never mentioned. Some think it pertains to Jesus coming into the kingdom of Hi s Father and, as a sign that the Son of Man had ascended into the heavens and was now reigning in glory, He judged ancient Israel, fulfilling His words, the unthinkable promised abomination that makes desolate: Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD and the people were slain and dispersed. During the subsequent "period of time" or eon (mistranslated "everlasting") the "goat" nations will be "tested" and go on or be discontinued, their peoples taken up into other cultures. A similar occurence is the presence of Jesus judging in His people caused the Roman Empire to dwindle away. So, clearly for preterist or futurist literalists, and most everybody else, it isn't at the end, the last judgment.

Let me digress on that phrase a moment. Concerning our venerable in human tradition but non-existant in the Bible "Last (or, Final) Judgment" here's the closest wording I can find, ocurring 4 times in John 6:39-54: "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (v.39)---Notice then who is lost and who is raised up from Jn 13:3: "Jesus knowing that the Father had given all into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded." (John 13:3-5)---And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." (v.40) "...and I will raise him up at the last day (v44,) "...and I will raise him up at [u]the last day." (v.54) Back to Mt 25...

The translators phrase, "everlasting fire" (Mt 25:41, KJV) is about the fire itself only, nothing about what is experienced nor for how long by any nation being purified in it. Greek word order reveals it is not "eonian fire," (v.41) an age-lasting fire (which would not be forever at any rate,) but "fire eonian," fire pertaining to, appropriate to, or, of a specific age. Fire transfigures. Not an aspect of His wrath, but His intrinsic nature: "Our God is a consuming fire." As born of Him, flames of fire are what the sons are becoming. The goat nations are to go into chastening appropriate to the age in which they were not aligned with the Divine will in the age in which they experience discipline. That works transformation in reference to the impending age or eon, ie., "chastening eonian." (v.46) The word order in the Greek also indicates it is not the chastening that last for an age (which would not be forever if it did,) but qualities appropriate to a certain age or ages define the fire.

We can see when the Greek language God used in these passages is more deeply examined the traditions of man, whose, "Every imagination of the thoughts of his heart is only evil continually" (Gn 8:21) dissolve away even more. That dissolution is to be preferred to dissolving in The Great Deluge solution. Not a form of (Grk.) paideuo, which means: "discipline" or "train", the word (v.46) is here (Grk.) kolazo (kolasis is another form of the same word) in the original that the King James translators used "punishment" to represent. The truth is kolazo, or, kolasis is to be contrasted with the actual "punish" words, (Gk.) timoreo, or, "timoria which contain the roots of both "value" and "lift." "Aristotle distinguishes timoreo (punish) from kolasis (chasten,) which is disciplinary and has reference to the one who suffers, while timoreo is penal and has reference to the satisfaction of the one who inflicts. Plato is in agreement. Scripture bears this out." (cf., CLT, concordance)

Chastening, which has an intended result of bettering the one exercised thereby, is enough to disqualify it for teaching unending "punishing," which is the proper form of punish if the intended meaning was "perpetual, an end in itself." It was not out of ignorance the KJV English here only has "punishment." An example is David was not allowed by God to build the temple because as a man of war, but specially for setting up the murder of a man so he could take his wife, he had bloody hands. This was a permanent judgment, an "everlasting punishment," if you will. Two thirds of the men who worked on the King James translation also worked on The Westminster Catechism, a high point of English language theological writing. In its first edition it had no mention of eternal torment. Through political maneuverings it was inserted in two places two years later. As as anyone who examines the result can plainly see, they did a hatchet job of inserting that idea. There is no flow as in the rest of the text.

One of the great differences between the God of ancient Israel and the gods of the other nations of the world at that time was a social welfare system IEUE instituted to provide for the poor of His people. His law had them tithe (give a tenth) from the increase of the land: flocks, herds, honey, wine, crops and not from anything else, just the land. The corners of the fields were to be left at harvest so the poor could come and glean. This was part of God's glory among the nations. There were no jails. The over 500 references to "the poor" placed them into a relation to God as those called "righteous." His ear was specially attuned to their cry. There is so much more. (To digress again: it should be mentioned there is nothing in the New Testament advocating any "church" tithe. Once the New Covenant was cut through the death of Christ and His triumphant resurrection there are many reasons enumerated to GIVE, however. The thought, "Ten percent for God and ninety percent for me," is in direct contradiction to what Jesus taught, that, "If there be any man among you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.")

We would do well to ask how our own country treats the (illegal) aliens, the strangers. Do we take them in or send them back or put them in a "detention facility?" Those in confinement or prison, without anyone to share with, no visitors; those infirm, whether the aged or mentally or physically infirm; those hungry and malnourished, thirsty; those without adequate covering: clothes and shelter...what are our national policies toward such persons? How much chastening, even if it does yield "the peaceable fruit of righteousness when it is finished," would we be under? How much glory would we enter into subsequent to such judgments? Is this judgment happening now? We need to remember:

1 Timothy 2:1-6 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
1 I am entreating, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, pleadings, thanksgiving be made for all mankind,
2 for kings and all those being in a superior station, that we may be leading a mild and quiet life in all devoutness and gravity,
3 for this is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God,
4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus,
6 Who is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all (the testimony in its own eras)...
Great post James ... another thing that people seem to pass over is that Paul makes an example of kolasis (from a Greek root which means to prune) when he speak of how Israel was "cut off" so that the gentile nations could be grafted in. But we see that they will be grated back in showing that this kolasis (correction or chastisement) is temporary(Romans 11). AS the judgment once reserved for Israel is now the same judgment that God uses to judge the whole world. Kolasis is both temporal and remedial.
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