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Old 10-19-2009, 05:54 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,491,403 times
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Remember when the Lost are tossed into the lake of fire, it is a lake "of' fire.....
Not a lake 'on" fire.

The lake, or sea or whatever image you have of the final resting place of the damned is a body of pure fire that the lost a submerged into.
They are fully ...well for lack of a better word ..."baptized" in the flames...fully immersed in pure fire.

The pain as we have seen, is not only mental, but heart wrenching physical as well.
Perhaps one of the most painful parts of being cast into Hell's flame is the seemingly closeness of paradise.
How you can see and talk to the ones in paradise, yet there exists a barrier between heaven and hell that cant ever be crossed
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Old 10-19-2009, 06:30 AM
 
Location: kansas
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There are three who will be eternally punished. Thay are satan, the antichrist, and the beast. the eternal fires are made for them. However I'm not sure any man will go there because as I understand there are many on the earth that will be gathered man aka sheep and fallen spirits aka goats. When you place a goat with sheep the goat will lead the herd of sheep astray. so.... those whos names are not found in the book of life(the rebelious spirits, angels, demons etc) will be cast into the lake of fire. Yet man will endure a salting of fire and that is in the light of Jesus the Messiah when we realize fullness of all He has done for us.
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Old 10-19-2009, 06:53 AM
 
78 posts, read 87,795 times
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wanted to address one point made in this thread:

Originally Posted by sciotamicks ....yes by faith in Him. No faith, no atonement.



Where does the faith come from???
Eph 2:8- For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

We are given faith now or later, but ALL will come to the knowledge of the truth
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Old 10-19-2009, 07:01 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,124,426 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Remember when the Lost are tossed into the lake of fire, it is a lake "of' fire.....
Not a lake 'on" fire.

The lake, or sea or whatever image you have of the final resting place of the damned is a body of pure fire that the lost a submerged into.
They are fully ...well for lack of a better word ..."baptized" in the flames...fully immersed in pure fire.

The pain as we have seen, is not only mental, but heart wrenching physical as well.
Perhaps one of the most painful parts of being cast into Hell's flame is the seemingly closeness of paradise.
How you can see and talk to the ones in paradise, yet there exists a barrier between heaven and hell that cant ever be crossed
And this description is "PURE SPECULATION" on your part and the part of many others who teach things that are not found in God's Word.
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:11 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,293,726 times
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So eternal righteousness is limited as well..? I knew the AION card would be drawn, yet UR fails to realise that this isn't the word presented in the Greeek. The word is AIONIOS, which is derived from AION, not the meaning of AION. This is where all stumble when translating the Greek into English, or for the UR crowd, importing English into the Greek. AIONIOS is only related to AION in that it is the root word, not the meaning. AIONIOS is forever, everlasting, eternal. AION is used to describe various meaning depending on the context of the discourse or pasage. AIONIOS is not.
This is simple translation, yet it appears that the UR crowd has complicated it much.
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,401,265 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dipidydoodaa View Post
wanted to address one point made in this thread:

Originally Posted by sciotamicks ....yes by faith in Him. No faith, no atonement.



Where does the faith come from???
Eph 2:8- For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

We are given faith now or later, but ALL will come to the knowledge of the truth
I would even go further than that and say that it is not even our faith that caused the grace but Jesus' faith in God which was pure faith, not the loose term of "faith" Jesus said his disciples had (and he was standing right there in front of them!).
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,401,265 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Remember when the Lost are tossed into the lake of fire, it is a lake "of' fire.....
Not a lake 'on" fire.

The lake, or sea or whatever image you have of the final resting place of the damned is a body of pure fire that the lost a submerged into.
They are fully ...well for lack of a better word ..."baptized" in the flames...fully immersed in pure fire.

The pain as we have seen, is not only mental, but heart wrenching physical as well.
Perhaps one of the most painful parts of being cast into Hell's flame is the seemingly closeness of paradise.
How you can see and talk to the ones in paradise, yet there exists a barrier between heaven and hell that cant ever be crossed
All of which is founded on the rich man and Lazarus passage...

Talk about picking a choosing... LOL

You have quite the imagination!
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:30 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,401,265 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
So eternal righteousness is limited as well..? I knew the AION card would be drawn, yet UR fails to realise that this isn't the word presented in the Greeek. The word is AIONIOS, which is derived from AION, not the meaning of AION. This is where all stumble when translating the Greek into English, or for the UR crowd, importing English into the Greek. AIONIOS is only related to AION in that it is the root word, not the meaning. AIONIOS is forever, everlasting, eternal. AION is used to describe various meaning depending on the context of the discourse or pasage. AIONIOS is not.
This is simple translation, yet it appears that the UR crowd has complicated it much.
It's not really that complicated when you look at other Greek authors who used the words. Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, and others.

Eternal or aionios only referred to God. God is the only eternal thing humans know of. Eternal life is life with eternal God. Eternal punishment is punishment (correction) from eternal God. Punishment and life from a human perspective can never be eternal because the only thing we know of as eternal is GOD.

I have no problem with the word meaning ages when talking about human time and eternal when talking about God. When I talk about God being eternal I mean forever and ever... When I talk about the dentist taking forever, I mean that it takes A LONG TIME- ages!

Same concept can be applied to any passage with olam or aionios.

God is Eternal... lest we forget... and things of God are eternal... Humans die and are never eternal. Now after death in the presence of God is eternal, but would be another thread in itself.
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,293,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post

God is Eternal... lest we forget... and things of God are eternal... Humans die and are never eternal. Now after death in the presence of God is eternal, but would be another thread in itself.

This is where you err. Yes God is eternal, and when we die, our righteousness is eternal...or is it temporary if I were to follow the same hermeneutics as UR follows?

Again, I point out, the word AIONIOS does not mean anything to be temporary, yet AION does refer to age. You cannot tie the two words to mean the same thing, as they are clearly not. AION is a noun and AIONIOS is an adjective. If we were to apply the hermeneutics UR applies to this rule of syntax, then we have one describing the period and the other describing the likeness of the period.

AION - Age
AIONIOS - perpetual, eternal age

I have done much study on this in the last week, and from what I see, is a classic example of eisegesis and improper hermeneutics only to satisfy the flesh, as it always has been for the church.

For the record, I don't bind to annihilation, yet I do bind to eternal righteousness and separation.

What say you about eternal righteousness?
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Old 10-19-2009, 01:32 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,208,545 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
So eternal righteousness is limited as well..? I knew the AION card would be drawn, yet UR fails to realise that this isn't the word presented in the Greeek. The word is AIONIOS, which is derived from AION, not the meaning of AION. This is where all stumble when translating the Greek into English, or for the UR crowd, importing English into the Greek. AIONIOS is only related to AION in that it is the root word, not the meaning. AIONIOS is forever, everlasting, eternal. AION is used to describe various meaning depending on the context of the discourse or pasage. AIONIOS is not.
This is simple translation, yet it appears that the UR crowd has complicated it much.
No not at all.. Think about it ... Aionions means pertaining to the ages. Not all men will have life pertaining to the ages, but all men will eventually have life when the ages are consummated and the fullness of times has come. What is aionios life but that life which all will have in the fullness of times, but given to us now here in the ages?


The word aionios is an adjective form of the word aion. Just like Christian is an adjective formed from the word Christ. Just as the English suffix -ian means roughly "of", when added to the word Christ it means one who is of Christ.

So -ion is a Greek suffix which means of or pertaining to, and when added to aion it mean of or pertaining to the aions or eons or ages.

Saying we have life pertaining to the ages is not tantamount to saying that we will not have life after the ages. We have life aionios(in the ages), which is due to the fact God has revealed himself to us now in the ages.

Josephus never used the word aionios to express endless duration, neither did Philo ... The only time Aristotle or Plato used the word to mean endless was when they applied it to time in general, because Hellenistic thought believed time to be eternal. They believed the ages existed forever before now and would exist forever after now. This however is not the biblical belief concerning time and or the ages which according to the bi9ble clearly had a beginning and will have an end.

Quote:
The language of Josephus is used by the profane Greeks, but is never found in the New Testament connected with punishment. Josephus, writing in Greek to Jews, frequently employs the word that our Lord used to define the duration of punishment (aionios), but he applies it to things that had ended or that will end. Can it be doubted that our Lord placed his ban on the doctrine that the Jews had derived from the heathen by never using their terms describing it, and that he taught a limited punishment by employing words to define it that only meant limited duration in contemporaneous literature? Josephus used the word aionos with its current meaning of limited duration. He applies it to the imprisonment of John the Tyrant; to Herod's reputation; to the glory acquired by soldiers; to the fame of an army as a "happy life and aionian glory." He used the words as do the Scriptures to denote limited duration, but when he would describe endless duration he uses different terms.
Quote:
Philo, who was contemporary with Christ, generally used aidion to denote endless, and aionian temporary duration. He uses the exact phraseology of Matt. xxv: 46, precisely as Christ used it: "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and ćonian punishment (chastisement) from such as are more powerful." Here we have the precise terms employed by our Lord, which show that aionian did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ. Philo adopts athanaton, ateleuteton or aidion to denote endless, and aionian temporary duration. In one place occurs this sentence concerning the wicked: "to live always dying, and to undergo, as it were, an immortal and interminable death." Stephens, in his valuable "Thesaurus," quotes from a Jewish work: "These they called aionios, hearing that they had performed the sacred rites for three entire generations." This shows conclusively that the expression "three generations" was then one full equivalent of aionian. Now, these eminent scholars were Jews who wrote in Greek, and who certainly knew the meaning of the words they employed, and they give to the aeonian words the sense of indefinite duration, to be determined in any case by the scope of the subject. Had our Lord intended to inculcate the doctrine of the Pharisees, he would have used the terms by which they described it. But his word defining the duration of punishment was aionian, while their words are aidion, adialeipton, and athanaton. Instead of saying with Philo and Josephus, thanaton athanaton, deathless or immortal death; eirgmon aidion, eternal imprisonment; aidion timorion, eternal torment; and thanaton ateleuteton, interminable death, he used aionion kolasin, an adjective in universal use for limited duration, and a noun denoting suffering issuing in amendment. The word by which our Lord describes punishment is the word kolasin, which is thus defined: "Chastisement, punishment."

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-19-2009 at 01:42 PM..
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