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Old 10-19-2009, 02:13 PM
 
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Does anyone think we are in the lake of fire RIGHT NOW? I have been pondering this lately.
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Old 10-19-2009, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Good points Ironmaw, however, lthe UR position appears to be guilty of the same reasoning and hermeneutics that futurist tend to use when dealing with the scripture, translations, context and exegesis.

A classic example of importation of English into the ancient language. Your use of the early scholars of the first millenium is candid, but nevertheless, ill-applied and strongly contrary to the overall message we see in the scripture.

aionios [G166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in see Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.

The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in 2 Cor. 4:18, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, literally meaning `for a season, and in Philem. 15, where only in the NT it is used without a noun.

As well it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, for example, of God, Rom. 16:26; of His power, 1 Tim. 6:16, and of His glory, 1 Pet. 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, Heb. 9:14; of the redemption effected by Christ, Heb. 9:12, and of the consequent salvation of men, Heb 5:9, as well as of His future rule, 2 Pet. 1:11, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luke 1:33; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, John 3:16, concerning whom He said, "they shall never perish," 10:28, and of the resurrection body, 2 Cor. 5:1, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' 1 Cor. 15:53, in which that life will be finally realized, Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2.

"Aionios is also used of the sin that "hath never forgiveness," Mark 3:29, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, Heb. 6:2, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' Mark 9:43.
The use of aionios here shows that the punishment referred to in 2 Thes. 1:9, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive.

aionios as an adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX (Septugiant) in Psa. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33.

1. of God (Rom. 16:26)
2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16
3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cross reference - Mt.18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is “unceasing”.


Quote:
Matthew 25:46
Quote:

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
As a UR, do you believe that eternal righteousness is temporary?

We do not compare the adjectives eternal in both cases but rather the noun phrases which are completely different. We compare the noun phrases "eternal punishment' with "eternal life'" to discover "eternal punishment" is definitive in duration while "eternal life" is perpetual in duration.

So the word AIONIOS represents an unknown and unquantifiable duration.

The quality of life is found in the word "zoe" - Strong's G2222 - zōē, it means, "Life as a principle, life in the absolute sense, life as God has it. Abundant life." Zoe - Strong's G2222 - zōē, in itself, represents an immeasurable vast quality of life.
The word for punishment is actually called "kolasis" - Strong's G2851 - kolasis means, "Correction". Kolasis - Strong's G2851 - kolasis , in itself, represents a positive attribute of reformation and repentance.
Together, AIONIOS ZOE is Eternal Life, an unknown and unquantifiable duration of an immeasurable vast quality of life. Life perpetual. AIONIOS KOLASIS is Eternal Punishment, an unknown and unquantifiable duration of reformation and repentance. Since correction will end in Christ, and life begins in Christ, the duration of punishment will end, but the duration of life is perpetual.
The uncanny disregard for the ancient language has led many off the path of the doctrines in question. Just like futurists, UR, JHW, LDS and many more, they have stumbled on the simplicity of God's word.

Be a child - drink the milk, and when you are done with the milk, eat the meat.
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Old 10-19-2009, 03:34 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
So eternal righteousness is limited as well..? I knew the AION card would be drawn, yet UR fails to realise that this isn't the word presented in the Greeek. The word is AIONIOS, which is derived from AION, not the meaning of AION. This is where all stumble when translating the Greek into English, or for the UR crowd, importing English into the Greek. AIONIOS is only related to AION in that it is the root word, not the meaning. AIONIOS is forever, everlasting, eternal. AION is used to describe various meaning depending on the context of the discourse or pasage. AIONIOS is not.
This is simple translation, yet it appears that the UR crowd has complicated it much.
AION, (or eon) is the noun. AINOS (or English: "eonian") is the adjective. You are only referring to two grammatical forms of the same word. The meaning of the noun determines the meaning of its adjectival form.

Here is a good explanation excerpted from "Poisonous Fruit of Vine" by Tony Nungesser The Bitter Fruit of W.E. Vine. Aionios does not mean endless but means pertaining to the eon

----- ...let us first face squarely his idea that when aionios is applied to that which is eternal i.e. “God,” then it must mean eternal. This is faulty logic. If I say “That sure is a timely girl” since “timely” is applied to the girl, are we now to suggest that “timely” is to be interpreted as being temporary since the girl’s life is a temporary life and not an eternal life? No. “Timely” is an adjective which pertains to the girl being on time. What she is, (being female or young) and how long she lives has nothing to do with the word “timely.” Likewise, if we were to apply the word “timely” to God, it would not all of a sudden change meaning just because God is “eternal.” Thus also, when the adjective eonian is applied to God, the meaning of the word does not all of a sudden get changed due to God being eternal. Eonian, being an adjective, merely tells us that when it is used, it is that which pertains to the eon(s).

Let’s look at the word “weekly.” In the American Heritage Dictionary it states “adjective. 1. of or pertaining to a week.” Now suppose we apply that word to the young girl and then to God. Does the length of the week morph into a different length of time when applied to girl as opposed to when it is applied to God? No. Of course an eon is vastly longer than a week. But just the fact that eonian pertains to the eon just as weekly pertains to the week, neither weekly nor eonian change into different meanings based upon which noun they modify.

...that which is “American” is that which pertains to America...Just as our president is “the American president,” thus also, our God is “the eonian God” or the God pertaining to the eons. Just as our American president is presiding over the affairs of America, thus also our eonian God is over or in charge of the eons. He is subjecting all to the goals He has for each eon. See Romans 16:26 which it is stated that God is “the eonian God.” Your Bible might say “eternal God” or “everlasting God.” -----
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Old 10-19-2009, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 847,698 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
A classic example of importation of English into the ancient language. Your use of the early scholars of the first millenium is candid, but nevertheless, ill-applied and strongly contrary to the overall message we see in the scripture.

aionios [G166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in see Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.

The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in 2 Cor. 4:18, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, literally meaning `for a season, and in Philem. 15, where only in the NT it is used without a noun.

As well it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, for example, of God, Rom. 16:26; of His power, 1 Tim. 6:16, and of His glory, 1 Pet. 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, Heb. 9:14; of the redemption effected by Christ, Heb. 9:12, and of the consequent salvation of men, Heb 5:9, as well as of His future rule, 2 Pet. 1:11, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luke 1:33; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, John 3:16, concerning whom He said, "they shall never perish," 10:28, and of the resurrection body, 2 Cor. 5:1, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' 1 Cor. 15:53, in which that life will be finally realized, Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2.

"Aionios is also used of the sin that "hath never forgiveness," Mark 3:29, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, Heb. 6:2, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' Mark 9:43.
The use of aionios here shows that the punishment referred to in 2 Thes. 1:9, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive.

aionios as an adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX (Septugiant) in Psa. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33.

1. of God (Rom. 16:26)
2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16
3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cross reference - Mt.18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is “unceasing”.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The quality of life is found in the word "zoe" - Strong's G2222 - zōē, it means, "Life as a principle, life in the absolute sense, life as God has it. Abundant life." Zoe - Strong's G2222 - zōē, in itself, represents an immeasurable vast quality of life.
The word for punishment is actually called "kolasis" - Strong's G2851 - kolasis means, "Correction". Kolasis - Strong's G2851 - kolasis , in itself, represents a positive attribute of reformation and repentance.
Together, AIONIOS ZOE is Eternal Life, an unknown and unquantifiable duration of an immeasurable vast quality of life. Life perpetual. AIONIOS KOLASIS is Eternal Punishment, an unknown and unquantifiable duration of reformation and repentance. Since correction will end in Christ, and life begins in Christ, the duration of punishment will end, but the duration of life is perpetual.
The uncanny disregard for the ancient language has led many off the path of the doctrines in question. Just like futurists, UR, JHW, LDS and many more, they have stumbled on the simplicity of God's word.

Opposer: “and the other 66 places in the NT. The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in 2 Cor. 4:18, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit. ‘for a season.’ ”
Tony’s reply: In the Bible there are different time words: “day,” “week,” “month,” “*season,*” “year,” “era,” and “eon(s),” This has direct bearing on 2Cor.4:18: “. . . what is being observed is temporary, yet what is not being observed is eonian.” We observe the outward man decaying and our affliction which is temporary. Yet what is not being observed is that which pertains to the coming eons or as Paul writes “what is not being observed is eonian.” There is what is “temporary” or seasonal and something which is longer than temporary or longer than “a season” which is “eonian.” The contrast need not be between something lasting for a season and something eternal. It cannot be eternal, for eonian is that which pertains to the eons, and we know that no eon is eternal.

Opposer
: “and in Philm 15, where only in the NT it is used without a noun.”
Tony’s reply: Philemon would hardly collect his slave as an eternal payment . . . being his slave for all eternity! Rather it says: “For perhaps therefore is he separated for an hour, that you may be collecting him as an eonian repayment.” The repayment was pertaining to this eon and not pertaining to eternity.

Opposer continues
: “Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e.g., of God, Rom 16:26;”
Tony’s reply: This has already been dealt with above. God is the eonian God. He is the God pertaining to the eons. There is not one verse in all the Bible where aion (eon) means “eternal” or “endless.” God is the God pertaining to the eons and He is controlling the eons to His glory.

Also, we need to get something straight here: The duty of the adjective is to modify the noun. The noun is never to modify the adjective. “God” being a noun, is not supposed to modify the adjective “eonian.” Look in any grammar book. So when Vine states that “aionios can be eternal when applied to God” he is breaking the grammar rule of the adjective. When aionios is applied to God it modifies the noun “God” by telling us of His relationship to the eons.

Opposer
: “of His power, 1 Tim 6:16,”
Tony’s reply: 1Tim.6:16 says “. . . to Whom be honor and might eonian.” His power and might is shown to be pertaining to the eons. In the future, Christ will lay down all power and might when the eons have run their course (1Cor.15:25-28). He reigns until He quits reigning. He subjects Himself to God. This disproves the eternality of aionios.

Opposer
: “and of His glory, 1 Pet 5:10;”
Tony’s reply: 1Pet.5:10 says “ . . . Who calls you into His eonian glory in Christ.” The glory we will have in Christ is a glory pertaining to the eons. No eon is eternal.

Opposer
: “of the Holy Spirit, Heb 9:14;”
Tony’s reply: Here is Heb.9:14: “Who, through the eonian spirit (which is quite possibly Christ’s spirit?) offers Himself flawless to God.” This need not pertain to the holy spirit of God. The Bible talks about the “spirit of your mind” (Eph.4:23). This is the spirit which pertains to the eons.

Opposer
: “of the redemption effected by Christ, Heb 9:12,”
Tony’s reply: This is “entered once for all time into the holy place, finding eonian redemption.” The eonian redemption, like eonian life pertains to the eons and does not mean that God will not become All in all.

Opposer
: “and of the consequent salvation of men, 5:9,”
Tony’s reply: “He became the cause of eonian salvation to all who are obeying Him.” This salvation spoken of is the salvation pertaining to the eons. Not all mankind get to enjoy this special salvation. Many must wait till the eons have ended.

Opposer
: “as well as of His future rule, 2 Pet 1:11,”
Tony’s reply: “For thus will be richly supplied to you the entrance into the eonian kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.” This eonian kingdom is the kingdom which pertains to the eons. After all are subjected then the eonian kingdom is not needed to subject people. It ceases to be the kingdom of Jesus Christ when all are subjected to God, for then Christ ceases to reign. God then reigns supreme in all mankind (see 1Cor.15:22-28).

Opposer
: “which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luke 1:33;”
Tony’s reply: “And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation” (Lk.1:33). It does not say that of Jesus Christ’s reign there shall be no end. 1Cor.15:25 disproves that. The Kingdom continues after Christ’:s reign is completed.

Opposer
: “of the life received by those who believe in Christ, John 3:16,”
Tony’s reply: “ . . . who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having eonian life.” They get the life pertaining to the eons. The unbelievers do not. And what’s more, the believers don’t die. But this does not prove that aionios is eternal because they don’t die. It just means that what is eonian here involves us who are also given immortality.

Opposer
: “concerning whom He said, ‘they shall never perish,’: 10:28, and of the resurrection body, 2 Cor 5:1, elsewhere said to be ‘immortal,’: 1 Cor 15:53, in which that life will be finally realized, Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2.”
Tony’s reply: It is a flaw of logic to say that if one has immortality and one lives for the eons that therefore the eons are eternal. Christ is immortal. He has been living for almost 2000 years of this current eon since He rose from the dead. This does not prove we are living in eternity!

Opposer
: “Aionios is also used of the sin that ‘hath never forgiveness,’: Mark 3:29,”
Tony’s reply: “Whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin” (Mk.3:29). This proves that the sin is not eternal. The time limit on it not being forgiven is for an eon. And the penalty for that sin is eonian, which means that it is pertaining to the eon. The penalty pertains to that which is not eternal, but to a period having both a definite beginning and a definite end.

Opposer
: “and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, Heb 6:2,”
Tony’s reply: I don’t see where he gets that out of Heb.6:2! Here it is: “(not again teaching judgment eonian. And this will we be doing, that is, if God may be permitting).” The writer of Hebrews is just saying they would not be teaching on those things any more. He made no allusion that there is no appeal to this judgment. The teaching is that the judgment is pertaining to the eon(s), since it is “eonian judgment.”

Opposer
: “and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7, and which is elsewhere said to be ‘unquenchable,’: Mark 9:43.”
Tony’s reply: What does each verse say?
Matt.18:8: “to be cast into fire eonian.”
Mat.25:41: “cursed into the fire eonian.”
Jude 7: “justice of fire eonian.”
Mark 9:43: “into Gehenna, into the unextinguished fire.”

Not one of these verses proves aionios means eternal. The first three show that the fire is that which pertains to the eon.
The last one dealing with Gehenna lasts only 1000 years during Christ’s millennial reign so it cannot be eternal. So since there is not one verse in all the Bible where aion means eternal, aionios cannot mean eternal since it is the adjective pertaining to the noun “aion.”
____________________________________
Excerpts from "Poisonous Fruit of Vine" by Tony Nungesser. Click on the hotlink below for full article:
The Bitter Fruit of W.E. Vine. Aionios does not mean endless but means pertaining to the eon
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Old 10-19-2009, 04:02 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,309,987 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
AION, (or eon) is the noun. AINOS (or English: "eonian") is the adjective. You are only referring to two grammatical forms of the same word. The meaning of the noun determines the meaning of its adjectival form.

Here is a good explanation excerpted from "Poisonous Fruit of Vine" by Tony Nungesser The Bitter Fruit of W.E. Vine. Aionios does not mean endless but means pertaining to the eon

----- ...let us first face squarely his idea that when aionios is applied to that which is eternal i.e. “God,” then it must mean eternal. This is faulty logic. If I say “That sure is a timely girl” since “timely” is applied to the girl, are we now to suggest that “timely” is to be interpreted as being temporary since the girl’s life is a temporary life and not an eternal life? No. “Timely” is an adjective which pertains to the girl being on time. What she is, (being female or young) and how long she lives has nothing to do with the word “timely.” Likewise, if we were to apply the word “timely” to God, it would not all of a sudden change meaning just because God is “eternal.” Thus also, when the adjective eonian is applied to God, the meaning of the word does not all of a sudden get changed due to God being eternal. Eonian, being an adjective, merely tells us that when it is used, it is that which pertains to the eon(s).

Let’s look at the word “weekly.” In the American Heritage Dictionary it states “adjective. 1. of or pertaining to a week.” Now suppose we apply that word to the young girl and then to God. Does the length of the week morph into a different length of time when applied to girl as opposed to when it is applied to God? No. Of course an eon is vastly longer than a week. But just the fact that eonian pertains to the eon just as weekly pertains to the week, neither weekly nor eonian change into different meanings based upon which noun they modify.

...that which is “American” is that which pertains to America...Just as our president is “the American president,” thus also, our God is “the eonian God” or the God pertaining to the eons. Just as our American president is presiding over the affairs of America, thus also our eonian God is over or in charge of the eons. He is subjecting all to the goals He has for each eon. See Romans 16:26 which it is stated that God is “the eonian God.” Your Bible might say “eternal God” or “everlasting God.” -----
Above is a perfect example of importing English into the Ancient Greek. I have worked on the study of Ancient Greek for a few years now, and all I have seen throughout the UR camp is the consistent blatant disregard for the Ancient language, its syntax, and of course, Biblical hermeneutics. Once you all get passed that, I may be convinced, but the scripture plainly adheres to univeral salvation, but also embodies eternal punishment.
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Old 10-19-2009, 04:25 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 847,698 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Above is a perfect example of importing English into the Ancient Greek. I have worked on the study of Ancient Greek for a few years now, and all I have seen throughout the UR camp is the consistent blatant disregard for the Ancient language, its syntax, and of course, Biblical hermeneutics. Once you all get passed that, I may be convinced, but the scripture plainly adheres to univeral salvation, but also embodies eternal punishment.
If you persist in asserting eonios, the advectival form of eon, has another meaning than its noun form you are way behind on basic grammar in any language! They are the same word in different grammatical forms. A noun and its adjectival form have the same meaning because they are only different forms of the same word.

Here I am repeating myself hoping you get basic grammar. You gave the response so quickly It seems clear you didn't bother reading what I posted. You keep repeating the same basic error from ignorance of the elementary laws of grammar that pertain to every human language. When things are this bad it is of little use to go on to what is actually the foundation concerning God because you lack the ability to listen. "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?" (John 3:12, AV)

Just remember, if your God continually tortures countless sentient beings without ceasing and without any hope of release, all the while saying, "I love you, I love you, I love you," you must become the same kind of being. God said He will make you in His image and likeness. Your destiny is to become a Master Torturer too, since your God is this.

Titus 3:9-11 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
9 Yet stand aloof from stupid questioning and genealogies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain.
10 A sectarian man, after one and a second admonition, refuse,
11 being aware that such a one has turned himself out, and is sinning, being self-condemned.
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Old 10-19-2009, 04:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Good points Ironmaw, however, lthe UR position appears to be guilty of the same reasoning and hermeneutics that futurist tend to use when dealing with the scripture, translations, context and exegesis.

A classic example of importation of English into the ancient language. Your use of the early scholars of the first millenium is candid, but nevertheless, ill-applied and strongly contrary to the overall message we see in the scripture.
I understand you are a preterist, but like i said there are many preterists i know personally who are believers in Universal reconciliation. My application of a partial futurist interpretation to scripture in light of the ministry of reconciliation is only one perspective. I am neither a full futurist nor a full preterist, i believe the truth is somewhere in the middle and i believe the ministry of reconciliation is evidence of this. katjonjj is just one example of a full preterist who has accommodated her belief with universal reconciliation, though i have recognized your debates with her on these issues, which i care not to involve myself in on account of the fact i am not a full preterist myself. What is certain is that Preterism and Universal reconciliation are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Neither are full futurism and universal reconciliation. I just happened to notice myself that a partial view preterism/futurism seems to be more accurate in light of UR.

Quote:
aionios [G166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in see Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.

The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in 2 Cor. 4:18, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, literally meaning `for a season, and in Philem. 15, where only in the NT it is used without a noun.
Yes, a season as in a group of seasons. What is aionios could apply to a single season or age, or it could endure all seasons and or ages. And to say that they endure all seasons and ages does not mean that those things do not also continue after the culmination of the seasons/ages of time. In this sense what is described as proskairos(enduring only a while but not for all time) is in contrast with aionios(in this case enduring throughout all times). But at the fullness of times both things aionios and proskairos will be done away with. Even the earth itself which is aionios will be destroyed eventually, even if you believe in a full preterist perspective. I don't see how even full preterists could imagine the time is eternal, as we have come to discover the fact that time must have began along with the universe at big-bang. I dont understand aionios and proskairos to be apposing one another in this use so much as aionios in this case is a description of that which extends throughout the measure of all that is proskairos. It does not qualify endlessness or disqualify it in regard those things to which aionios refers.

Quote:
As well it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, for example, of God, Rom. 16:26; of His power, 1 Tim. 6:16, and of His glory, 1 Pet. 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, Heb. 9:14; of the redemption effected by Christ, Heb. 9:12, and of the consequent salvation of men, Heb 5:9, as well as of His future rule, 2 Pet. 1:11, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luke 1:33; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, John 3:16, concerning whom He said, "they shall never perish," 10:28, and of the resurrection body, 2 Cor. 5:1, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' 1 Cor. 15:53, in which that life will be finally realized, Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2.
Yes it is used to describe things that are eternal, but that doesn't mean that aionios is referring to the eternal quality or nature of those things to which it refers that also have an eternal nature.

Also concerning the future rule of Christ being everlasting that is shown to be in error in 1Cr 15:25. and the salvation of men, if universal reconciliation is correct, when spoken of as aionios zoe refers to the fact that those that are of the household of faith who are elected by God to be co-heirs with Christ are saved now in the ages, while everyone else will not be saved until the ages are consummated and brought to an end. The fact that we are to take part in the first resurrection(Rev 20:6) and to be given immortality(aphthartos) does not designate aionios zoe as the same thing as aphthartos as we see they are exclusive qualities in 1Ti 1:17 ...

1Ti 1:17
Now unto the King eternal(aionios, enduring the ages or of the ages, or pertaining to the age or ages), immortal(aphthartos, everlasting life), invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever(unto the ages of ages). Amen.

We see here that aionios is not referring to his everlasting life but to his relationship to his creation and his power throughout the ages.

Quote:
"Aionios is also used of the sin that "hath never forgiveness," Mark 3:29, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, Heb. 6:2, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' Mark 9:43.
The use of aionios here shows that the punishment referred to in 2 Thes. 1:9, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive.

aionios as an adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX (Septugiant) in Psa. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33.

1. of God (Rom. 16:26)
2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16
3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cross reference - Mt.18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is “unceasing”.
Well to begin with Mark 3:29 does not employ the use of the word aionios but instead it says ...

"οὐ εἰς αἰών" or "not among(or in) the age" ...

And Heb. 6 says nothing about aionios krima having no appeal. The fact is once the fullness of times is come the there will be no more need for judgment as God will be all in all. Now tackling this from the full preterist perspective is not on my list of to do, seeing that i believe full preterism to be in error to begin with, but i'm sure that if you think about it you could harmonize these things as well.

You say 2 Thes. 1:9 is retributive and not remedial, but that is not understanding the way in which the word(olethros) is used in 1 Cor 5:5 ...

1Cr 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction(olethros) of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Here we plainly see the purpose of the destruction of the flesh by Satan is so that the spirit may be saved in the day of the lord. This is very specific about the destruction(olethros).

Concerning the unquenchable fire, let us look at what scripture in the old testament this is derived from ...

Sgs 8:6-7
6Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave: the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame.
7Many waters cannot quench love, neither can the floods drown it: if a man would give all the substance of his house for love, it would utterly be contemned.


The unquenchable fire of Gods judgments in the new testament is here shown to be derived from Gods love. Gods wrath derives from his jealousy, and the fires of his wrath are a vehement flame that cannot be quenched. God loves all people, and his judgments are as a parent for their child, out of love and not for brutality or mere retribution alone. That is what it means when it is said the in fact "God is love". To say that Gods judgments and mercies are mutually exclusive is to misunderstand the nature of God to begin with. God is just because he is merciful. His judgments are tempered by his mercy out of love and so he is just.


Where the septuigent is concerned, again the word is aionios and you infer the meaning of eternal because it uses those words to describe something or someone who has those qualities, but it is a logical fallacy to say it necessarily means eternal because of that.


For instance the Hebrew word in the old testament translated with aionios is olam, and olam does not designate everlasting, but only what is beyond sight. The literal definition of the word olam is "beyond the horizon", and it has been show that olam is used to refer to things that we know for a fact did not last forever, such as the temple of Solomon.


Examples of the use of the Hebrew word olam in the old testament, thanks to ShanaBrown ...


Quote:
Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude
7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom"
16:53-55).

Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer.
30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal
her wounds (Jer. 30:17).

The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until--
Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez.
16:53).

Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no
more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27 --until--the Lord will
"restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6).

An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the
Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth
generation (Deut. 23:3):

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were
"everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered"
Hab. 3 3:6).

The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting"
priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was
superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews
7:14-18).

Many translations of the Bible inform us that God
would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings
8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.

The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant"
(Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the
first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians
3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without
blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a
"perpetual"-- until-- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies
for our sins. We now have a better covenant
established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb.
8:6-13).

God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah
"forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large
fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);
Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer.
25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of
Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam"
(Jer. 49:39).

"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord
"will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).

Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit is
poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).

So, narrow is the way to life and few find it-until--
and His church confiscate the "strong man's" booty,
setting the captives free so God becomes all in all
(Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor.
15:24-28).

The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us
that a bondslave was to serve his master "forever"
(Exodus 21:6), that is,--until--his death
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
As a UR, do you believe that eternal righteousness is temporary?

We do not compare the adjectives eternal in both cases but rather the noun phrases which are completely different. We compare the noun phrases "eternal punishment' with "eternal life'" to discover "eternal punishment" is definitive in duration while "eternal life" is perpetual in duration.

So the word AIONIOS represents an unknown and unquantifiable duration.


Not at all, again aionios righteousness only refers to the fact that in the spirit of Christ we are justified and counted as righteous here and now in the ages even though we are still in these corrupt and sinful bodies and yet commit sin day to day. We have aionios righteousness by faith in Christ now, but we are waiting for the hope of righteousness to come, when we are changed and made immortal and incorruptible.

Gal 5:5
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.



Quote:
The quality of life is found in the word "zoe" - Strong's G2222 - zōē, it means, "Life as a principle, life in the absolute sense, life as God has it. Abundant life." Zoe - Strong's G2222 - zōē, in itself, represents an immeasurable vast quality of life.
Indeed, and the key word here is quality and not quantity. Aionios Zoe refers to the quality of life we have in knowing God and his Christ here and now in the ages, which gives us joy and peace that surpasses all understanding. Not fearing any longer the wages of sin(death), but in faith looking forward to the hope of immortality and righteousness.

Quote:
The word for punishment is actually called "kolasis" - Strong's G2851 - kolasis means, "Correction". Kolasis - Strong's G2851 - kolasis , in itself, represents a positive attribute of reformation and repentance.
Together, AIONIOS ZOE is Eternal Life, an unknown and unquantifiable duration of an immeasurable vast quality of life. Life perpetual. AIONIOS KOLASIS is Eternal Punishment, an unknown and unquantifiable duration of reformation and repentance. Since correction will end in Christ, and life begins in Christ, the duration of punishment will end, but the duration of life is perpetual.
Look kolasis does not mean punishment it means correction. To try and make it mean retributive is to misuse the term itself. We have aionios zoe now, so we will not suffer loss(1Cr 3:15) in aionios kolasis, or age during pruning or chastisement. Instead God is already working with us to will and do of his good pleasure now here in the ages, so that we will take part in the first resurrection(Rev 20:6) and not suffer the chastisement of aionios kolasis that other will endure to finally be reconciled to God.

Quote:
The uncanny disregard for the ancient language has led many off the path of the doctrines in question. Just like futurists, UR, JHW, LDS and many more, they have stumbled on the simplicity of God's word.

Be a child - drink the milk, and when you are done with the milk, eat the meat.


My friend, i could say the same to you. Perhaps you are just not willing to understand Gods love for all men, and that his judgments derive from that love and are not void if it. This i believe to be the true mystery of godliness, which many have yet to come to understand.

With love, your friend Ironmaw1776 ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-19-2009 at 05:46 PM..
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Old 10-19-2009, 05:51 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
They are the same word in different grammatical forms. A noun and its adjectival form have the same meaning because they are only different forms of the same word.


No they aren't. Aionios is rooted from Aion, but is not the same in meaning. Go back to studying Ancient Greek...or for that matter any oter language may help you. I speak three fluently and read five.

Quote:
You keep repeating the same basic error from ignorance of the elementary laws of grammar that pertain to every human language.
Error of ignorance...? What appears from your and all of the UR camp is the blatant disregard for lingual syntax. Maybe you should learn another language.

I would reply to your scripture, but just as futurists do, they impose their preconceived assumptions into the text, so it would probably be fruitless.

I am here to discuss the syntax of the ancient Greek.
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Old 10-19-2009, 06:00 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Ironmaw,

I wish I had a little more time, and I haven't read your entire post, but I will in the next few hours or tomorrow, as I am at work..chef....mucho trabajo senor.

In regards to Preterism.....being a preterist, as I am, I adhere to Full Preterism. Katonjj considers herself a Preterist....Full???

Let me start by saying one thing...to be a Full Preterist, you have to believe that all scripture has been fulfilled...completely...all that is left is the perpetual blessings of Abraham to those that receive Christ, and the eventual (this only applies to some) and gradual draw of all men (Adamic state..that is on this earth in the flesh) will come to believe in Jesus. THis may take a few mnillenia, but eventually, it will happen.

For the Universal Reconciliationists that consider themselves preterist, they aren't...but only partial, and most of them deny the Mercy Seat judgement of Revelation 20 as being past tense, yet they apply the New Heavens and Earth a past event, which is contradictory because they simultaneously happen within the time frame of the Parousia event. I have spoken with quite a few Full Preterist theologians on this matter we are discussing from the likes of Sam Frost, Dr. Nelson Kelly Birks, David Green and others to name a few, and all of them disregard UR as a hopeful, yet wishful delusion.

God bless you.
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Old 10-19-2009, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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I heard katonjj refer to the Hebrew "Owlam"

Ezekiel 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting (owlam) covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

In the LXX, the Greek AIONIOS is used as well for this...what say UR?

Is God's covenant...temporary throughout the ages and ages?

I think not.
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