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Old 10-19-2009, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,387,998 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
This is where you err. Yes God is eternal, and when we die, our righteousness is eternal...or is it temporary if I were to follow the same hermeneutics as UR follows?
I may be erring... We really won't know until after death BUT for the sake of the argument. God is eternal. We are IMPUTED with righteousness that is not earned. Our righteousness is not eternal... God's righteousness is eternal. Our righteousness is not even temporary, I would call it non-existent.

Quote:
Again, I point out, the word AIONIOS does not mean anything to be temporary, yet AION does refer to age. You cannot tie the two words to mean the same thing, as they are clearly not. AION is a noun and AIONIOS is an adjective. If we were to apply the hermeneutics UR applies to this rule of syntax, then we have one describing the period and the other describing the likeness of the period.
Take this passage for example:
John 17:1-3
After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

The first eternal life is aiōnion zōēn, accusative case. Just so it is clear that it is the same eternal life which is defined in the next verse, aiōnios zōē, nominative case, right?

Now I don't profess absolute knowledge about grammar and especially not koine greek grammar... but it is obvious that Jesus says that he will give eternal life and then he defines eternal life as knowing God. So regardless of whether aionios means forever without end or not.. Jesus uses it in direct relation to God and his eternal being not ours. It is eternal life to know the eternal one.


Quote:
AION - Age
AIONIOS - perpetual, eternal age

I have done much study on this in the last week, and from what I see, is a classic example of eisegesis and improper hermeneutics only to satisfy the flesh, as it always has been for the church.
It has more to do with common sense. Sometimes people complicate things in order to prove a point when it is not neccessary. I know that there are pages and pages of argument on the use and meaning of aion and it's adjective form but think about the last time you used the word eternal (besides these posts LOL) in a sentence outside of the bible...

I mean if you think about it.. anytime I use the words forever, everlasting, eternal, eternity... they are nothing more than nonsense words.

If a human says to you that something is eternal yet does not pertain to God.. you know automatically that they are being facetious.

Yet here you take a bunch of bible verses and emphatically state that Christ and the disciples could possibly have used that same word and meant it to apply outside of God. It just doesn't.

So when you see the words/term defined (as in verse 3 above) you really have to take that to heart. If eternal life is to know God then can we say that eternal describes a span of time or is it defining God's view of life for us? That to know God is eternally rewarding in this life.

Quote:
For the record, I don't bind to annihilation, yet I do bind to eternal righteousness and separation.

What say you about eternal righteousness?
Like I said before. I cannot use the word eternal to mean forever and ever without end with a straight face unless it applies to God. We are never righteous. We are imputed with righteousness by God, therefore our eternal righteousness would be of God and eternal works grammatically as you say.

Hope that made sense.. I am not scholar of grammar so I can only say what I think and know in my own experience with words. I wouldn't squabble too much about the actual meaning of eternal because it is a fruitless argument. Eternal on earth NEVER means eternal unless we are speaking of God.

I asked my husband if he had ever used the words eternal or everlasting in a sentence and he said, no... that is a religious word. He is right. The absolute use of eternal's definition is directly tied to God and makes no sense when applied to humans. IMHO.
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Old 10-19-2009, 05:35 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,286,831 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
. Eternal on earth NEVER means eternal unless we are speaking of God.
I couldn't agree with you more. We have no concept of eternal.
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Old 10-19-2009, 06:00 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,199,823 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I may be erring... We really won't know until after death BUT for the sake of the argument. God is eternal. We are IMPUTED with righteousness that is not earned. Our righteousness is not eternal... God's righteousness is eternal. Our righteousness is not even temporary, I would call it non-existent.

Take this passage for example:
John 17:1-3
After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

The first eternal life is aiōnion zōēn, accusative case. Just so it is clear that it is the same eternal life which is defined in the next verse, aiōnios zōē, nominative case, right?

Now I don't profess absolute knowledge about grammar and especially not koine greek grammar... but it is obvious that Jesus says that he will give eternal life and then he defines eternal life as knowing God. So regardless of whether aionios means forever without end or not.. Jesus uses it in direct relation to God and his eternal being not ours. It is eternal life to know the eternal one.


It has more to do with common sense. Sometimes people complicate things in order to prove a point when it is not neccessary. I know that there are pages and pages of argument on the use and meaning of aion and it's adjective form but think about the last time you used the word eternal (besides these posts LOL) in a sentence outside of the bible...

I mean if you think about it.. anytime I use the words forever, everlasting, eternal, eternity... they are nothing more than nonsense words.

If a human says to you that something is eternal yet does not pertain to God.. you know automatically that they are being facetious.

Yet here you take a bunch of bible verses and emphatically state that Christ and the disciples could possibly have used that same word and meant it to apply outside of God. It just doesn't.

So when you see the words/term defined (as in verse 3 above) you really have to take that to heart. If eternal life is to know God then can we say that eternal describes a span of time or is it defining God's view of life for us? That to know God is eternally rewarding in this life.

Like I said before. I cannot use the word eternal to mean forever and ever without end with a straight face unless it applies to God. We are never righteous. We are imputed with righteousness by God, therefore our eternal righteousness would be of God and eternal works grammatically as you say.

Hope that made sense.. I am not scholar of grammar so I can only say what I think and know in my own experience with words. I wouldn't squabble too much about the actual meaning of eternal because it is a fruitless argument. Eternal on earth NEVER means eternal unless we are speaking of God.

I asked my husband if he had ever used the words eternal or everlasting in a sentence and he said, no... that is a religious word. He is right. The absolute use of eternal's definition is directly tied to God and makes no sense when applied to humans. IMHO.
I agree with you on these points. Though i still believe aionios to be an adjective form of the word aion, and to mean pertaining to the ages etc. I trust many of the Greek professors i have studied in this regard, though maybe they are wrong. Regardless, even if aionios meant everlasting or eternal, it doesn't necessarily follow that humans who are not eternal being Judged by one who is eternal are going to be judged eternally, in the sense that they will never cease from their torments.It could be, if the word aionios could be proven to mean eternal or everlasting, that the judgment endured by the wicked and unbelieving is itself not eternal, but only judgment that is exercised on them by the eternal God.

I do not hang my belief in UR on the meaning of the word aionios as meaning pertaining to the ages. However i find the fact that Philo and Josephus as well as Homer, used the word aionios to refer to things that obviously were not eternal or everlasting evidence that even if the word aionious could mean eternal or everlasting, it doesn't necessarily mean eternal or everlasting.

The fact is that 1st century Jews who spoke Greek(*namely the pharisees) never used the phrase aionios kolasis to refer to everlasting punishment. Instead they used the phrases thanaton athanaton, deathless or immortal death; eirgmon aidion, eternal imprisonment; aidion timorion, eternal torment; and thanaton ateleuteton, interminable death ... If Christ had meant everlasting punishment it seems clear to me he would have employed the terms that greek speaking jews of his times used and not aionios kolasis, which i believe to mean age-during chastisment ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-19-2009 at 06:16 PM..
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Old 10-19-2009, 06:27 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,387,998 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Does anyone think we are in the lake of fire RIGHT NOW? I have been pondering this lately.
Well some would say that is heresy... BUT if you see what Jesus says about living it makes perfect sense that you can be repeatedly dipped in the lake of fire for any type of correction needed. It's the same thing described here where it "implies" that it is on earth during our lifetimes in:

Job 1:16 While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, "The fire of God fell from the sky and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!"

Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven,

Leviticus 10:2 And fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD.

Numbers 11:1 Now the people became like those who complain of adversity in the hearing of the LORD; and when the LORD heard it, His anger was kindled, and the fire of the LORD burned among them and consumed some of the outskirts of the camp.

Jer. 5:3 O LORD, do not your eyes look for truth? You struck them, but they felt no pain; you crushed them, but they refused correction. They made their faces harder than stone and refused to repent.

Rev. 20:9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Seems like if God's presence is a gift of grace on earth, then it is equally plausible that his wrath is also a fire here on earth.

I wonder if you looked at the locations of the churches in the first century you would find that they surround the city of Jerusalem as in Rev. 20:9?

But that is another topic altogether.
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Old 10-19-2009, 06:30 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,387,998 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I agree with you on these points. Though i still believe aionios to be an adjective form of the word aion, and to mean pertaining to the ages etc. I trust many of the Greek professors i have studied in this regard, though maybe they are wrong. Regardless, even if aionios meant everlasting or eternal, it doesn't necessarily follow that humans who are not eternal being Judged by one who is eternal are going to be judged eternally, in the sense that they will never cease from their torments.It could be, if the word aionios could be proven to mean eternal or everlasting, that the judgment endured by the wicked and unbelieving is itself not eternal, but only judgment that is exercised on them by the eternal God.

I do not hang my belief in UR on the meaning of the word aionios as meaning pertaining to the ages. However i find the fact that Philo and Josephus as well as Homer, used the word aionios to refer to things that obviously were not eternal or everlasting evidence that even if the word aionious could mean eternal or everlasting, it doesn't necessarily mean eternal or everlasting.

The fact is that 1st century Jews who spoke Greek(*namely the pharisees) never used the phrase aionios kolasis to refer to everlasting punishment. Instead they used the phrases thanaton athanaton, deathless or immortal death; eirgmon aidion, eternal imprisonment; aidion timorion, eternal torment; and thanaton ateleuteton, interminable death ... If Christ had meant everlasting punishment it seems clear to me he would have employed the terms that greek speaking jews of his times used and not aionios kolasis, which i believe to mean age-during chastisment ...
Exactly... Which is why we can surely apply it to God. So we either apply God to all the "eternal" phrases or we apply the eternal phrases to God. Either way one cannot say dogmatically that eternal means eternal all the time or half of us would be speaking lies about eternal traffic jams and things... LOL

Thanks for the insights.
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Old 10-19-2009, 08:09 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 844,442 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde
They are the same word in different grammatical forms. A noun and its adjectival form have the same meaning because they are only different forms of the same word.



No they aren't. Aionios is rooted from Aion, but is not the same in meaning. Go back to studying Ancient Greek...or for that matter any oter language may help you. I speak three fluently and read five.

Quote:
You keep repeating the same basic error from ignorance of the elementary laws of grammar that pertain to every human language.
Error of ignorance...? What appears from your and all of the UR camp is the blatant disregard for lingual syntax. Maybe you should learn another language.

I would reply to your scripture, but just as futurists do, they impose their preconceived assumptions into the text, so it would probably be fruitless.

I am here to discuss the syntax of the ancient Greek.
Many people speak languages without reading them. Many speak and read languages without an understanding of grammar.

"America" and "American" are different forms of the same word. "America" is the noun and "American" is its adjective. "Mercy" is a noun whose adjectival form is "merciful." They are the same word, only differing in grammatical form. "God" and "Godly" are two forms of the same word. The adjective of "day," which is written as "daily," doesn't mean a thousand year period, it is a 24 hour period of time used to modify or describe that amount of time as it pertains to a different noun, like, "daily news," meaning the news that occurs or is pertinent to a "day." The meaning of the adjective is determined by the noun when speaking of the same word. "Eon" is the noun form and "eonios" is the adjective of a Greek term generally meaning a long period of time. Usually the sense is the "eons" pertain to the time aspect of what is called in Greek, the "cosmos," which constitutes the physical manifestation of what we call "the space/time continuum." The following is a pertinent though repeated quote from Tony Nungesser:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
The duty of the adjective is to modify the noun. The noun is never to modify the adjective. “God” being a noun, is not supposed to modify the adjective “eonian.” Look in any grammar book. So when Vine states that “aionios can be eternal when applied to God” he is breaking the grammar rule of the adjective. When aionios is applied to God it modifies the noun “God” by telling us of His relationship to the eons.
Because you seem not to have read the longer list of examples previously posted I have selected a few of the simple explanations to issues you keep bringing up in hopes you might, "...be filled full with the realization of His will, in all wisdom and spiritual understanding..." (Co 1:9)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post

Opposer: “and the other 66 places in the NT. The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in 2 Cor. 4:18, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit. ‘for a season.’ ”
Tony’s reply: In the Bible there are different time words: “day,” “week,” “month,” “*season,*” “year,” “era,” and “eon(s),” This has direct bearing on 2Cor.4:18: “. . . what is being observed is temporary, yet what is not being observed is eonian.” We observe the outward man decaying and our affliction which is temporary. Yet what is not being observed is that which pertains to the coming eons or as Paul writes “what is not being observed is eonian.” There is what is “temporary” or seasonal and something which is longer than temporary or longer than “a season” which is “eonian.” The contrast need not be between something lasting for a season and something eternal. It cannot be eternal, for eonian is that which pertains to the eons, and we know that no eon is eternal.

Opposer
: “and in Philm 15, where only in the NT it is used without a noun.”
Tony’s reply: Philemon would hardly collect his slave as an eternal payment . . . being his slave for all eternity! Rather it says: “For perhaps therefore is he separated for an hour, that you may be collecting him as an eonian repayment.” The repayment was pertaining to this eon and not pertaining to eternity.

Opposer continues
: “Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e.g., of God, Rom 16:26;”
Tony’s reply: This has already been dealt with above. God is the eonian God. He is the God pertaining to the eons. There is not one verse in all the Bible where aion (eon) means “eternal” or “endless.” God is the God pertaining to the eons and He is controlling the eons to His glory.

Also, we need to get something straight here: The duty of the adjective is to modify the noun. The noun is never to modify the adjective. “God” being a noun, is not supposed to modify the adjective “eonian.” Look in any grammar book. So when Vine states that “aionios can be eternal when applied to God” he is breaking the grammar rule of the adjective. When aionios is applied to God it modifies the noun “God” by telling us of His relationship to the eons.

Opposer
: “concerning whom He said, ‘they shall never perish,’: 10:28, and of the resurrection body, 2 Cor 5:1, elsewhere said to be ‘immortal,’: 1 Cor 15:53, in which that life will be finally realized, Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2.”
Tony’s reply: It is a flaw of logic to say that if one has immortality and one lives for the eons that therefore the eons are eternal. Christ is immortal. He has been living for almost 2000 years of this current eon since He rose from the dead. This does not prove we are living in eternity!Opposer: “and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7, and which is elsewhere said to be ‘unquenchable,’: Mark 9:43.”
Tony’s reply: What does each verse say?

Matt.18:8: “to be cast into fire eonian.”
Mat.25:41: “cursed into the fire eonian.”
Jude 7: “justice of fire eonian.”
Mark 9:43: “into Gehenna, into the unextinguished fire.”

Not one of these verses proves aionios means eternal. The first three show that the fire is that which pertains to the eon.
The last one dealing with Gehenna lasts only 1000 years during Christ’s millennial reign so it cannot be eternal. So since there is not one verse in all the Bible where aion means eternal, aionios cannot mean eternal since it is the adjective pertaining to the noun “aion.”
____________________________________
Excerpts from "Poisonous Fruit of Vine" by Tony Nungesser. Click on the hotlink below for full article:
The Bitter Fruit of W.E. Vine. Aionios does not mean endless but means pertaining to the eon
Please pray this prayer including yourself to petition and give thanks for :

Colossians 1:9-20 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
9 Therefore we also, from the day on which we hear, do not cease praying for you and requesting that you may be filled full with the realization of His will, in all wisdom and spiritual understanding,
10 you to walk worthily of the Lord for all pleasing, bearing fruit in every good work, and growing in the realization of God;
11 being endued with all power, in accord with the might of His glory, for all endurance and patience with joy;
12 at the same time giving thanks to the Father, Who makes you competent for a part of the allotment of the saints, in light,
13 Who rescues us out of the jurisdiction of Darkness, and transports us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
14 in Whom we are having the deliverance, the pardon of sins,
15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,
17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him.
18 And He is the Head of the body, the ecclesia, Who is Sovereign, Firstborn from among the dead, that in all He may be becoming first,
19 for in Him the entire complement delights to dwell,
20 and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens.
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Old 10-19-2009, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 844,442 times
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You apparently failed to read this, so I'll post it again in hopes that your conscience has some remaining function.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesmrohde View Post
Just remember, if your God continually tortures countless sentient beings without ceasing and without any hope of release, all the while saying, "I love you, I love you, I love you," you must become the same kind of being. God said He will make you in His image and likeness. Your destiny is to become a Master Torturer too, since your God is this.
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Old 10-19-2009, 08:34 PM
 
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I believe the last words of God to the condemned as they are booted into the lake of fire is..."Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity"
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Old 10-19-2009, 08:57 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
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Perhaps this has already been mentioned, but when I studied the original Greek for "lake of fire", I saw that it literally meant "a harbor or haven of divine purification". Any thoughts?
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Old 10-19-2009, 09:06 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,487,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
original Greek for "lake of fire", I saw that it literally meant "a harbor
LOL...let me get this right...
The meaning of "Lake Of fire" is said by someone to be a harbor?....LOL

You mean a the best place to park a boat or a ship is in the "lake of fire?"

does that even sound right?

Seems to me that if I were the Captain of a ship, and I saw a harbor that was completely on fire, I would tend to think that was not a great place to pull in and drop anchor at....LOL


I would look for the harbor not on fire,,,but thats just me.
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