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Old 10-19-2009, 10:13 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,294,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
You apparently failed to read this, so I'll post it again in hopes that your conscience has some remaining function.
Now why would God say He loves those that denied His Son?

God is unchanging....He abhors...yes hates...or have you not read enough but the loving parts?

He loves, and is merciful, but He is just, and He is Jealous, and He wraths.
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Old 10-19-2009, 10:17 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,491,788 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
wraths.
Women and God, the only ones that get to wrath...
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Old 10-19-2009, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,402,797 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
I believe the last words of God to the condemned as they are booted into the lake of fire is..."Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity"
You realize that the passage you quote says nothing about how long or where these workers of iniquity go... Just out of Jesus' face... You infer the rest.
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Old 10-19-2009, 10:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
You realize .
I quote the text...the rest is in your head...
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Old 10-19-2009, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
Perhaps this has already been mentioned, but when I studied the original Greek for "lake of fire", I saw that it literally meant "a harbor or haven of divine purification". Any thoughts?
Yes... I think most universalists would agree but it's greek to everyone else...
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Old 10-19-2009, 10:21 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,209,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daddythreepointoh View Post
Perhaps this has already been mentioned, but when I studied the original Greek for "lake of fire", I saw that it literally meant "a harbor or haven of divine purification". Any thoughts?
The word lake(limnē) in the Greek is derived from a word that means harbor or haven(limēn). The word fire itself is pyr and literally means fire. But understanding what fire is symbolic of is what is important. Without going into quoting the scriptures that define the symbolic meaning of fire(Sgs 8:6,Mal 3:2-3) in regard judgment, we only need to look at the Greek word translated as torment which is basanizō which means touchstone. A basanizo is a touchstone used in the process of refining metals to test the purity of the metals being so refined. Notice the word used here is not timorion, which actually means torment, but it is basanizo or touchstone which means purification in this context. The symbolic meaning of sulfur(brimstone) is that of purification and sanctification as well. Sulfur was used as an incense for the purpose of sanctifying sacred implements before putting them to use in religious ceremonies and rituals by various cultures including that of the Hebrews. Sulfur or brimstone was also used to ward off pestilence and that is one of two reason that Gehenna was peppered with sulfur all about, the other reason being that it kept the flames therein burning for the same purpose. Thus fire is very well in line with these words in its symbolic meaning of transformation and purification.

The fact of the matter is every single aspect of the symbolism associated with Gods judgments refers to the process of purification and sanctification. Its just that uneducated fundamentalists who are programed to believe whatever they are told by the administrating officials that oversee their indoctrination are virtually incapable of processing this information and understanding it for the truth that it is because they are so brainwashed. And the people who are programing them are either completely brainwashed themselves and have no education outside their own indoctrination or they are willingly ignorant of these facts in favor of their own false understanding for one reason or the other. I believe the main reason is that they are deceiving the laity in order to control them using fear of pain and death.


Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-19-2009 at 10:55 PM..
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Old 10-19-2009, 10:45 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,402,797 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
I quote the text...the rest is in your head...
Oy VEY! Alan, just when I think you actually read others' posts I see that you don't even read your own!

Here is what you said:
Quote:
I believe the last words of God to the condemned as they are booted into the lake of fire is..."Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity"
Here is the verse you quoted:

Matt. 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Right? or is it:
Psalm 6:8 Depart from me, all you who do iniquity, For the LORD has heard the voice of my weeping.

Perhaps Luke 13:27 "But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'

Psalm 119:115 Depart from me, evildoers, That I may observe the commandments of my God.

Either way....

Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness He will judge the poor, And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked.

I think it is pretty clear that you are embellishing just a bit... God's breath is fire? Actually it is his spirit..Ruach. And what do we know that the Spirit of God does to the wicked? Burn them for eternity or soften their hearts for correction and acceptance of Jesus' teachings?
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Old 10-19-2009, 10:52 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,209,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Now why would God say He loves those that denied His Son?

God is unchanging....He abhors...yes hates...or have you not read enough but the loving parts?

He loves, and is merciful, but He is just, and He is Jealous, and He wraths.
Why would God love those who denied his son?

For the same reason Jesus tells us to love our enemies, and to bless those who curse us and pray for those the persecute us.

You are understanding what is anthropomorphic language as if it were literal. Love does not hate, it prefers and defers. That is to say God prefers the ones whom he has elected and he defers the salvation of the wicked and unbelieving who are so deceived ... Surely you dont believe that when Christ says ...

Luk 14:26
If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.

... That he actually means we have to literally hate our family and ourselves in order to follow him?

Don't fall into the trap of over literalizing the scriptures and become unable to recognize the spirit of the message of the Gospel on account of the parabolic language used by Christ abd the apostles to deter the wicked and unbelieving from coming to a knowledge of the truth before their appointed time ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-19-2009 at 11:05 PM..
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:05 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 845,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Now why would God say He loves those that denied His Son?

God is unchanging....He abhors...yes hates...or have you not read enough but the loving parts?

He loves, and is merciful, but He is just, and He is Jealous, and He wraths.
If the son given in our stead even could be cancelled out, as if He was not and His works could be burnt up, whatever then should be paid? According to God's Word, "The wages of sin is death," not never ending torture. When will you understand that, "...the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy" (Jam 5:11) and not wrath?

"For his anger endureth but a moment..." (Psalm 30:5) but, "...his mercy endureth for ever." (Psalnm 136:1-26) What is popularly taught is, "His mercy is very conditional and easily withdrawn, but His wrath endureth for ever," the reverse of God's word. You can't have it both ways. Will what is written triumph in your mind? I assure you, God's repetition of the phrase "...his mercy endurethfor ever" in Psalm 136 is not for lack of words. It points to the difficulty that the thoughts of men tend only to evil, which is why the flood of Noah's day. People have trouble believing good.

You, like so many, have lacked a good foundation. In the list of elementary principles or foundational teachings concerning Christ in Hebrews, the last of 6 categories the King James Version represents with the phrase: "eternal judgment." (Heb 6:2) I was raised to read that as meaning "everlasting damnation." In the Greek "eon" endless time is not here. The judgment pertains to the long periods of time we might call "ages." Judgment is simply to set things right. It is "the setting things right according to the age in which they occur." It is eon relevant justice. This, with the other basic beginning understandings, is to be established as a basis for going on into maturity which is "the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." (Eph 4)
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:06 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,294,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Why would God love those who denied his son?

For the same reason Jesus tells us to love our enemies, and to bless those who curse us and pray for those the persecute us.

You are understanding what is anthropomorphic as it were literal. Love does not hate, it prefers and defers. that is to say God prefers the ones whom he has elected and he defers the salvation of the wicked and unbelieving who are so deceived ...

Hey Brother...after reading Isaiah, I would like you or other that adhere to UR to explain these:

These places are regarding Sheol, and since you don't adhere to Full Preterism, I imagine you believe it still exists, which is irrellevant either way, but let's move forward:

Isa 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Without getting into the context of the text too much, but I will note that Isaiah's description here is most likely the fate of the wicked by the Lord's slaying of 185,000 men of the Assyrian army during the reign of Hezekiah.
Either way, they are abhorring and they are consumed, whereas so bad that "the worm shall not die."

Daniel 12:2 ...Everlasting Contempt.... is the he second major Old Testament text used by traditionalists to support everlasting punishment. This speaks of the resurrection of both good and evil: "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Daniel teaches that whereas the godly will be raised to never-ending life, the wicked will be raised to never-ending disgrace.

What say you?
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