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Old 10-17-2009, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
in terms of what?
In terms of converting one to the ways of righteousness.
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Old 10-17-2009, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Ok, now let's hear the decription of people think the 5 brethren are:

Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
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Old 10-17-2009, 09:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
no "hades", however hades is not everlasting,.
Is that the word used here - "In hell, where he was in torment,..." the place of fire?
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Old 10-17-2009, 12:45 PM
 
Location: Germany
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και εν τω αδη επαρας τους οφθαλμους αυτου υπαρχων εν βασανοις ορα τον αβρααμ απο μακροθεν και λαζαρον εν τοις κολποις αυτου (Textus Receptus)

adÍ is a form of aidÍs, hades, this place is not everlasting according to Revelation 20:13, Jesus has the keys to it (Rev. 1:18)
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Old 10-17-2009, 01:07 PM
 
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The believer in this story goes to the side of Abraham...I will have to check but this could well be the "paradise" that Jesus spoke about on the cross...
The description of it by Abraham in the story does seem to fit the general understanding of paradise.

The condemned person in the story goes into a fire and is in unspeakable torment.

Is this the 'lake of fire" spoken of as being the final stop for the Lost?... not likely...but there could be a way that it is.

Could this place of torment be the 'Hades" that is said to be tossed into the lake Of fire?...yes it might be.

Once all the people that are lost are tossed into the lake of fire, there would be little need after the Resurrection for a place where the disembodies spirits of the lost were held before the Resurrection, so why not toss it in with them?
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Old 10-19-2009, 03:13 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Quote:
I will have to check but this could well be the "paradise" that Jesus spoke about on the cross
but paradise seems to be in the third heaven (2Cor. 12:1-4) and not in the netherworld, notice that they were able to speak with each other, if this story were true we must assume that paradise belongs to the netherworld and that "hell" is within eyeshot, who does actually believe that?
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Old 10-19-2009, 05:42 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
if this story were true we must assume that paradise belongs to the netherworld and that "hell" is within eyeshot, who does actually believe that?
Um,,,the Text clearly teaches that the ones in Hell are able to see and talk and listen to the ones in Heaven...

So I believe it 100%
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Old 10-19-2009, 10:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
but paradise seems to be in the third heaven (2Cor. 12:1-4) and not in the netherworld, notice that they were able to speak with each other, if this story were true we must assume that paradise belongs to the netherworld and that "hell" is within eyeshot, who does actually believe that?
Before Jesus Christ was resurrected, ascended, and seated at the right hand of God the Father, no member of the human race was allowed into Heaven.

Therefore, all Old Testament saints who died went into Paradise, which was one of the compartments of Hades. Since the resurrected Christ is in Heaven, all believers now go directly into Heaven at the moment of death. The Old Testament saints that were in Paradise in Hades are now in the third Heaven, the throne room of God. The only people now in Hades are those members of unbelieving humanity who are in the compartment called Torments, where thay await their final transference into the lake of fire at the end of the Millennium.
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:47 AM
 
Location: Germany
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so we have a paradise in hell, and a paradise in heaven

I don't consider that scripural but a faulty interpretation based upon a single verse of a parable, but believe what you want
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Old 10-19-2009, 01:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
so we have a paradise in hell, and a paradise in heaven

I don't consider that scripural but a faulty interpretation based upon a single verse of a parable, but believe what you want
The English word 'hell' doesn't recognize the distinction between the compartments of 'Paradise' and 'Torments' in Hades. Hades is the Sheol that is spoken of in the Old Testament.

Torments is 'Tartaroo' in the Greek.
The chasm, or great gulf fixed is 'chasma' in the Greek.
Paradise, or Abrahams Bosom is 'Kolpos' in the Greek.

This has been improperly translated as Hell in the English. But 'Hell' in reality more properly describes the lake of fire-Gehenna (Greek but from a Hebrew name); also called 'limne pur' (also Greek) limne-lake; pur-fire.

Compare Luke 23:43 ''verily I say to thee, Today with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'' (Youngs Literal Translation.)

With

Ephesians 4:9 (Now this expression, ''He ascended,'' what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10] He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) Note the distinction between verse 9 and verse 10. In verse 10 He ascends into the third Heaven which is far above all the heavens. In contrast, in verse 9, Christ had descended into the LOWER parts of the earth. (the Paradise side of Hades) He also went into Tartarus to proclaim to the fallen angels imprisoned there, that He had succeeded in His mission to pay the penalty for the sins of the world and inform those imprisoned angels that Satan had been defeated, and their destiny in the lake of fire was certain.

Now relate Ephesians 4:9 with Luke 23:43 and see that the thief had accompanied Christ into Paradise which at that time, was in Hades.

Go to the commentary at this link and go to the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary. It pertains to Eph. 4:9.

Ephesians 4:9 Bible Commentary

If you are determined to be an unbelieving skeptic, then no amount of evidence will ever be enough for you. If you are seeking the truth, then recognize it when it's presented.
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