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Old 10-19-2009, 08:17 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,628,309 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Before Jesus Christ was resurrected, ascended, and seated at the right hand of God the Father, no member of the human race was allowed into Heaven.

Therefore, all Old Testament saints who died went into Paradise, which was one of the compartments of Hades. Since the resurrected Christ is in Heaven, all believers now go directly into Heaven at the moment of death. The Old Testament saints that were in Paradise in Hades are now in the third Heaven, the throne room of God. The only people now in Hades are those members of unbelieving humanity who are in the compartment called Torments, where thay await their final transference into the lake of fire at the end of the Millennium.
Completely contrary to scripture:

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

David wasn't said to be alive.

Paul
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Old 10-19-2009, 08:19 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,628,309 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
The believer in this story goes to the side of Abraham...I will have to check but this could well be the "paradise" that Jesus spoke about on the cross...
The description of it by Abraham in the story does seem to fit the general understanding of paradise.

The condemned person in the story goes into a fire and is in unspeakable torment.

Is this the 'lake of fire" spoken of as being the final stop for the Lost?... not likely...but there could be a way that it is.

Could this place of torment be the 'Hades" that is said to be tossed into the lake Of fire?...yes it might be.

Once all the people that are lost are tossed into the lake of fire, there would be little need after the Resurrection for a place where the disembodies spirits of the lost were held before the Resurrection, so why not toss it in with them?
Hi Alan, the place is hades which is really just a place below the surface of the ground which was meant to be a type of being less than life - of being the farthest distance away from God (God is understood to be in the Heavens in type). Jesus would look up and pray and yet this is just a type (God is everywhere in reality) but this is all as a type for us to understand from the things made.

Paul
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Old 10-20-2009, 05:59 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,566,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
The believer in this story goes to the side of Abraham...
But there IS no believer in the story. Just a rich dude and a poor dude.

Don't you read my stuff???

Faith is never mentioned in this parable because it was aimed at the Pharisees false beliefs about the afterlife.
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Old 10-20-2009, 06:02 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,487,341 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
But there IS no believer in the story.
.
Yes there are two believers listed.
The first is Abraham, the 2nd is this Lazarus.

The lost person is the rich guy burning in hell and begging for a drop of water...
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Old 10-20-2009, 06:21 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,566,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Yes there are two believers listed.
The first is Abraham, the 2nd is this Lazarus.

The lost person is the rich guy burning in hell and begging for a drop of water...
It does not say the two principals in the story (The rich man and Lazarus) are either believers or non-believers. You are reading that into the story because of preconceptions about heaven and hell gained by listening to the traditions of the church.
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Old 10-20-2009, 06:30 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,487,341 times
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Believers dont burn in hell my friend....

Only the Lost end up there...

And if you think that Jesus thought that Abraham was not a believer in the Lord?....that's silly

This story is an account of the final ending of two people who both lived about the same time within feet of each other.
One was rich and didn't have any time for the poor out side his door.

The other had a very nasty life, and when he died was taken by the angels to be at Abraham's side.
Only believers in God are taken by the angels to Abrams side, or paradise. so this means....

so Im correct...
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Old 10-20-2009, 06:53 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,404,833 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Believers dont burn in hell my friend....
Luke 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

What do you think this verse is talking about Allan? We have an unfaithful servant - only believers are referred to as servants - and he is appointed a portion with the unbelievers.
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Old 10-20-2009, 07:04 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,487,341 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post

What do you think this verse is talking about Allan? .
...

It's "Alan"...not "Allan"

And I seem to remember someone telling me that they thought I was reading into the verse something...So it's hard to now ask me "What do you think this verse is talking about?" and not expect that I will have to interpret the meaning of the verse in some way....LOL

Believers are the wise servants, the ones who when the Lord returns have made all ready.

The "all" that they make ready is their own hearts...they "Believe" and their faith is counted as righteous.

The nonbeliever is the foolish servant, who did not get "all " ready for the return of the Maser.
He is tossed to hell forever.

So to review.
Lazarus is the believer, and he died and the angels take him to the side of Abraham.
This is the same fate of all who believe in God had have trusted in Him.

The non-believer in this story is the rich man.
This person was tossed in the flame of Hell, and there we find him begging Abraham for one drop of water from the tip of Lazarus's finger...

But he don't get it!!!!!
not even one little drop of water...Nothing!...there is no relief for the ones in hell...

Last edited by alanMolstad; 10-20-2009 at 07:29 AM..
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Old 10-20-2009, 10:54 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,198,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
...

It's "Alan"...not "Allan"

And I seem to remember someone telling me that they thought I was reading into the verse something...So it's hard to now ask me "What do you think this verse is talking about?" and not expect that I will have to interpret the meaning of the verse in some way....LOL

Believers are the wise servants, the ones who when the Lord returns have made all ready.

The "all" that they make ready is their own hearts...they "Believe" and their faith is counted as righteous.

The nonbeliever is the foolish servant, who did not get "all " ready for the return of the Maser.
He is tossed to hell forever.

So to review.
Lazarus is the believer, and he died and the angels take him to the side of Abraham.
This is the same fate of all who believe in God had have trusted in Him.

The non-believer in this story is the rich man.
This person was tossed in the flame of Hell, and there we find him begging Abraham for one drop of water from the tip of Lazarus's finger...

But he don't get it!!!!!
not even one little drop of water...Nothing!...there is no relief for the ones in hell...
Wow, you are really mixing up the parable aren't you? The wicked servant in that parable is one who has asked for and been forgiven by the lord, whom though he himself has been forgiven his debt, does not forgive others their debt. How can you say that the wicked servant is a non-believer when it clearly shows that he asked for forgiveness and was forgiven? Not to mention the fact that it would be terribly redundant and make little sense to say that a non-believer is appointed his portion with unbelievers ...

Ah fundamentalism ... it never ceases to surprise me ...
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Old 10-20-2009, 11:10 AM
 
Location: kansas
55 posts, read 68,979 times
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The parble of Lazarus and the rich man seems to me to be a lesson for these times where a rich man has all he will ever need but is never satisfied and the poor man who has nothing is is supplied with full satisfaction by the grace of God. I dont see it as a picture of the afterlife or a picture of hells punishment.
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