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Old 10-21-2009, 06:24 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,565,258 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
What Jesus teaches is that the believer was taken by the angels and there finds rest and comfort...
No He said that Lazarus had a hard life and was now comforted. The "believers" part you add in your mind. Nothing is mentioned about faith.

[25] "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony".

I understand that in your mind that's the only way you can make sense out of it - to make one a believer and the other a non-believer. The parable however does not say anything about that at all.

AISI this is a huge problem in Christianity. Folks take these blanket concepts (which are false in the first place) and then apply them in a manner which doesn't fit what is being taught.

If people don't want to learn anything beyond what they think they know - even when it is staring them in the face, I don't know what else I can do to help.

We have 4000 years of text which say nothing of agony or bliss in Sheol/Hades. We have Gehenna (13 times) but no mention of fire in Sheol/Hades anywhere in the old or new testament EXCEPT in this one parable. If you will take the time you will find that pagan mythology invented this concept (two compartments in Sheol/the Grave) and that's why this story does not fit your one size fits all theology.

There. I've laid the bread crumbs out for any who wish to investigate.
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Old 10-21-2009, 06:28 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,486,442 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Nothing is mentioned about faith.
Abraham is a believer in God...
It's silly to try to disagree with that...LOL
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Old 10-21-2009, 06:39 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,486,442 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
We have 4000 years of text
I dont know how many years of text we have,,,

But I do know we have the recorded sayings of Jesus Christ the Lord God Almighty on the subject.

We have his clear teachings (and remember he actually is the only one who has first hand knowledge of the facts) that the dead Lost are in fire.
That the dead lost are in unspeakable pain.
That the dead lost are fully awake.
That the dead lost can see and talk to the saved
That the dead lost will never get out, nor can anyone ever go get them out of their fire.

twist it around all you want, the message is still what I have said.

If you doubt the lost are in fire?....go check out the story and see if Jesus says anything about it?....

does Jesus say the lost are in fire, Y/N......

Does Jesus say the lost are in great pain?....Y/N....

If Jesus does not say the things I claim he said, then Im wrong.

But if Jesus words support everything I have claimed they did, then your disagreement is not with me....

So does Jesus say that the Rich man is in pain?......It's a yes or no question.

If you find you dare not answer with a Yes or No, then you are showing that you just don't "want" Jesus to say they are in pain....

Well too bad,,,,
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Old 10-21-2009, 07:05 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,706,353 times
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Quote:
does Jesus say the lost are in fire, Y/N......

Does Jesus say the lost are in great pain?....Y/N....
NO, Jesus said the rich man is tormented by a flame

NO, Jesus said the rich man is in great pain

furthermore Jesus said: For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. (John 19:10)
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Old 10-22-2009, 06:03 PM
 
29 posts, read 44,999 times
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Thank you to all who responded and especially to all who read the article in the OP.

The conclusion, as far as I'm concerned, is that the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16 is best explained here and here. These two articles actually explain ...

(1) why the rich man wasn't accused of any specific sins,
(2) why Lazarus wasn't ascribed any specific righteous acts,
(3) why the rich man was wearing purple linen,
(4) why it was "dogs" who licked Lazarus' sores,
(5) why the rich man had exactly 5 brothers, and who they were,
(6) the significance of "Neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead."in verse 30,
(7) who the Rich Man was,
(8) who Lazarus was.

By way of contrast, the traditional (hellish) interpretation has no answers for the first 6 points, and weak, unsupported answers for points 7&8.

Here, I repost Legoman's summary since it's so helpful:

Quick summary and explanation of the symbols in Luke 16 -- The Rich Man and Lazarus

The Rich Man = Judah representing Israel and the Jews

Clothed in purple = signifies royalty & Israel

Lazarus = Eleazer (Abraham's servant) representing the Gentiles

The scraps = Lazarus would have inherited all that Abraham had if Abraham had not had a son. But because Abraham did have a son, Lazarus only got the scraps.

The Rich Man had good things = Israel was God's chosen people

The Rich Man in torment = Israel disobeyed and Israel went through judgment

Abraham's Bosom = Lazarus close relationship with Abraham, signifying that the gentiles can come to God as well

The Rich Man's 5 brothers = Judah's 5 brothers (by His mother Leah)

Rich Man asking for water = Jewish nation asking for help from Gentiles

The great chasm = the separation of Israel from God. But Israel will eventually be saved (Romans 11), but NOT BEFORE the gentiles come in.


The moral is this:
God made Israel its chosen nation, but Israel threw it away by being disobedient. So God brought the gentiles in instead. Yet God will still save all of Israel, but they will now be last into God's kingdom, instead of first.
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Old 10-22-2009, 06:38 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,196,917 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tm55 View Post
Thank you to all who responded and especially to all who read the article in the OP.

The conclusion, as far as I'm concerned, is that the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16 is best explained here and here. These two articles actually explain ...

(1) why the rich man wasn't accused of any specific sins,
(2) why Lazarus wasn't ascribed any specific righteous acts,
(3) why the rich man was wearing purple linen,
(4) why it was "dogs" who licked Lazarus' sores,
(5) why the rich man had exactly 5 brothers, and who they were,
(6) the significance of "Neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead."in verse 30,
(7) who the Rich Man was,
(8) who Lazarus was.

By way of contrast, the traditional (hellish) interpretation has no answers for the first 6 points, and weak, unsupported answers for points 7&8.

Here, I repost Legoman's summary since it's so helpful:

Quick summary and explanation of the symbols in Luke 16 -- The Rich Man and Lazarus

The Rich Man = Judah representing Israel and the Jews

Clothed in purple = signifies royalty & Israel

Lazarus = Eleazer (Abraham's servant) representing the Gentiles

The scraps = Lazarus would have inherited all that Abraham had if Abraham had not had a son. But because Abraham did have a son, Lazarus only got the scraps.

The Rich Man had good things = Israel was God's chosen people

The Rich Man in torment = Israel disobeyed and Israel went through judgment

Abraham's Bosom = Lazarus close relationship with Abraham, signifying that the gentiles can come to God as well

The Rich Man's 5 brothers = Judah's 5 brothers (by His mother Leah)

Rich Man asking for water = Jewish nation asking for help from Gentiles

The great chasm = the separation of Israel from God. But Israel will eventually be saved (Romans 11), but NOT BEFORE the gentiles come in.




The moral is this:
God made Israel its chosen nation, but Israel threw it away by being disobedient. So God brought the gentiles in instead. Yet God will still save all of Israel, but they will now be last into God's kingdom, instead of first.
Aye ... Nice job ...

See what we can learn when we take the fundamentalist mumbo-jumbo out of the equation and begin to think for ourselves and use proper exegesis? Things actually start to make sense ... !
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Old 10-22-2009, 07:34 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,486,442 times
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My words in Blue
Quote:
Originally Posted by tm55 View Post

(1) why the rich man wasn't accused of any specific sins,
You got to be kidding?
He had a man starving to death, covered with blisters , eating his garbage while sitting just outside the front door of his house , and he did nothing to help him...do we really need to ask why he ended up burning forever in Hell?


(2) why Lazarus wasn't ascribed any specific righteous acts,
The list of his acts of righteous is not given.
This does not mean that he didn't have any,Nor does it mean that he was saved because he just suffered a great deal..
it just means they were not listed as the story dealt with other parts of his life, mainly his suffering outside the door of the rich man.

The only thing we do have is a long list of things he suffered.





(3) why the rich man was wearing purple linen,

Umm, because Purple was "in" that year in Paris?

The text does not really say more, other than in other parts of the bible that color came with a context...(see the book of Revelation).


(4) why it was "dogs" who licked Lazarus' sores,
Again, I dont think Jesus goes on to explain that answer.

We should never assume that every question we can ask has a clear-cut answer in the Bible....
The bible has a very limited topic list, and speaks on very few of the questions that we might dream up.


(5) why the rich man had exactly 5 brothers, and who they were,
I read in my Bible commentary that some Bible experts got it all worked out who the brothers stand for in the story.
I read some their ideas, and while interesting, they are not named in the story itself so they are at best a "nice guess, but only a guess"

Thus....moot.



(6) the significance of "Neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead."in verse 30,
The two clear answer leanings are "Jesus " or "Lazarus"...
Now if it is true that Jesus was actually pointing to his friend Lazarus, then that would explain why the Jews were so interested in killing Lazarus as well as Jesus during the lead up to the arrest of Jesus.


(7) who the Rich Man was,

The catholic church has a name for the guy, however the name they give him basically means "rich guy" so I doubt that was his real name.


(8) who Lazarus was.
There is a strong case to be made that this Lazarus is the same guy that Jesus would raise to life.
Does this have to be the same guy?...no.
But it would be very cool to learn one day that this story was not just a 'teaching story" but was a true "account" of one man's experiences in the after life...

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Old 10-22-2009, 08:14 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,626,466 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
I dont know how many years of text we have,,,

But I do know we have the recorded sayings of Jesus Christ the Lord God Almighty on the subject.

We have his clear teachings (and remember he actually is the only one who has first hand knowledge of the facts) that the dead Lost are in fire.
That the dead lost are in unspeakable pain.
That the dead lost are fully awake.
That the dead lost can see and talk to the saved
That the dead lost will never get out, nor can anyone ever go get them out of their fire.

twist it around all you want, the message is still what I have said.

If you doubt the lost are in fire?....go check out the story and see if Jesus says anything about it?....

does Jesus say the lost are in fire, Y/N......

Does Jesus say the lost are in great pain?....Y/N....

If Jesus does not say the things I claim he said, then Im wrong.

But if Jesus words support everything I have claimed they did, then your disagreement is not with me....

So does Jesus say that the Rich man is in pain?......It's a yes or no question.

If you find you dare not answer with a Yes or No, then you are showing that you just don't "want" Jesus to say they are in pain....

Well too bad,,,,
Hi Alan, sure Jesus says all those things. He even spoke them to the multitudes and the multitudes would go off and say just what fundamentalists say today - such things as that people will be destroyed by fire, etc.. But Jesus explained the REAL meaning to His Disciples. See it was given to them to understand those things. So what did Jesus actually do? - He BECAME A STUMBLINGSTONE to all those that would not seek out the real meaning of what He said. Did you know that our Apostles had cloven tongues of fire upon them when they received the Holy Spirit - Get that? - They were set on FIRE! Guess what else, John the bapist actually records that He who would come after him would baptise with the Fire of the Holy Spirit. What do you suppose John meant by that? And why does it say in the scriptures that God makes His minsters FLAMES OF FIRE? Do you really believe they are FIRE? - not at all. This is all symbolic of what their mission is which is to consume the evil by means of the Spirit. See Death is ACTUALLY destroyed by LIFE. People think the other way around that Death destroys life but that CANNOT be for that would mean that Death has power over Life - Get that? - So people die - not because Death has power over Life but because Life is withdrawn from someone and the result is death. So to destroy death just give someone Life. Were all going to be STONED to death - yes death of our OLD MAN by the very STONES that Jesus created - those stones are Paul, Peter, Luke, Mark, Matthew, etc... Jesus is going to STONE us with them. He is going to throw them right at us and we are going to be consumed by that Fire they possess. That's right - they are going to baptize us in that fire and burn away our contentious spirit and so that what remains is a humble and filled with God's Spirit. So do I want HELL - YES!!!! I want the WRATH of God upon me to consume the evil that is in me. I want Him to break my spirit and destroy the life of the evil beast that IS me so that what remains is Him in me. This is LIFE!
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Old 10-22-2009, 08:29 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,565,258 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Hi Alan, sure Jesus says all those things. He even spoke them to the multitudes and the multitudes would go off and say just what fundamentalists say today - such things as that people will be destroyed by fire, etc.. But Jesus explained the REAL meaning to His Disciples. See it was given to them to understand those things. So what did Jesus actually do? - He BECAME A STUMBLINGSTONE to all those that would not seek out the real meaning of what He said. Did you know that our Apostles had cloven tongues of fire upon them when they received the Holy Spirit - Get that? - They were set on FIRE! Guess what else, John the bapist actually records that He who would come after him would baptise with the Fire of the Holy Spirit. What do you suppose John meant by that? And why does it say in the scriptures that God makes His minsters FLAMES OF FIRE? Do you really believe they are FIRE? - not at all. This is all symbolic of what their mission is which is to consume the evil by means of the Spirit. See Death is ACTUALLY destroyed by LIFE. People think the other way around that Death destroys life but that CANNOT be for that would mean that Death has power over Life - Get that? - So people die - not because Death has power over Life but because Life is withdrawn from someone and the result is death. So to destroy death just give someone Life. Were all going to be STONED to death - yes death of our OLD MAN by the very STONES that Jesus created - those stones are Paul, Peter, Luke, Mark, Matthew, etc... Jesus is going to STONE us with them. He is going to throw them right at us and we are going to be consumed by that Fire they possess. That's right - they are going to baptize us in that fire and burn away our contentious spirit and so that what remains is a humble and filled with God's Spirit. So do I want HELL - YES!!!! I want the WRATH of God upon me to consume the evil that is in me. I want Him to break my spirit and destroy the life of the evil beast that IS me so that what remains is Him in me. This is LIFE!
What a post! Blessings,
- B
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Old 10-22-2009, 09:47 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,486,442 times
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I believe that Jesus will return next time with very real fire...
I believe the fire in hell is very real and unending.
That is what the Text says about it...

The Bible never used the word "FAKE" to talk about the fire in hell.
Nor does the Bible ever use the term, "Symbolic" to describe the fire burning the Lost in Hell.
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