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Old 10-23-2009, 06:40 AM
 
Location: Germany
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We should not jump to the conclusion that Lazarus was granted eternal life only because he was poor and sick...
indeed, we should not do so, but this is what the story actually implies, people who have had a bad live or been poor will go to heaven or whatelse, and people who were rich and had a good life will go to hell.

And why is it not Noah's bossom? Noah lived before Abraham and was called righteous, why does this Abraham's bossom appear nowhere else?

To me it's very plain that this story is a parable, refering to pagan Jewish beliefs borrowed from the Greeks and Egypts, I beging even to doubt if this story is a genuine part of the bible as argumented in that link.
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Old 10-23-2009, 11:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by svenM View Post
And why is it not Noah's bossom? Noah lived before Abraham and was called righteous, why does this Abraham's bossom appear nowhere else?

.
I believe that it was with Abraham that God set up the covenant , something about cutting up an animal to make it legal?...
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Old 10-23-2009, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Germany
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God also made a covenant with Noah (Genesis 9:17); my point is, "Abraham's bossom" does not also this sound very methaphorical and implies a methaphorical understanding of the whole story?

but even if this story where a literal description of what actually happened, it does not say, that the rich man's doom is infinite, churchfather St. Jerome e.g. believed that Jesus went to the place the rich man was and delivered him and all/many others.

Churchfather Athanasius as far as I know (though I am uncertain if it was Athanasius) believed that Jesus delivered all men that died before Him from Hades, (even Jude; he considered this the reason for Jude's suicide), this would include the rich man.
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Old 10-23-2009, 11:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by svenM View Post
God also made a covenant with Noah (Genesis 9:17); .
Yes, the covenant of Noah went until the time of Abraham.
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Old 10-23-2009, 11:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by svenM View Post
my point is, "Abraham's bossom"
a lot of people get mixed up as to what we are talking about with the Abraham's Bosom term.

I think a better way to help people understand what we are talking about is the term, "hug"

Think of it like this,
When a Jew died he had the hope that right after he died he would get greeted by his father Abraham and that Abraham would draw him close in his arms and welcome him to paradise with a warm father's embrace.

In the story of Lazarus and the rich man, we see Lazarus standing next to Abraham...
This closeness is clearly the dream of all Jews at the time.
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Old 10-23-2009, 11:56 AM
 
Location: Germany
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When a Jew died he had the hope that right after he died he would get greeted by his father Abraham and that Abraham would draw him close in his arms and welcome him to paradise with a warm father's embrace.
yes, the Pharisees believed something like that, it is however no scriptural teaching, the Sadducees e.g. believed no such thing and where also Jews

Abraham's bossom is a talmudic expression, the last section is quite interesting:

Rich Man and Lazarus q43.htm


Quote:
III. Contemporary Jewish Concept of "Abraham's Bosom"

It is evident, from Jewish writings, that the Pharisees and various others of Christ's day believed in the idea of consciousness after death. Their concept of hades had greatly changed since the days of the patriarchs and the close of the Old Testament canon. And in the time of Jesus they believed much as did the Greeks and others around them.

Reference is made, in the parable just noted, to "Abraham's bosom" (Luke 16:22), an expression found no other place in Scripture. So far as the Bible is concerned, there is nothing to indicate where "Abraham's bosom" is, or what it signifies.

We find, however, that the expression appears in extra-Biblical literature, and that it was apparently a current concept, or tradition, of the Jewish people. Josephus, in his "Discourse Concerning Hades," states that they call "Abraham's bosom" the place of felicity to which the righteous go at death. The Talmud refers to it as "Abraham's lap" (Kiddushin 72b). It was evidently the common belief of many in the days of Jesus.

In fact, the description of hades, as given by Josephus, parallels very closely the narrative of the rich man and Lazarus. (Full statement quoted in additional note on p. 565.) There we read of the great gulf fixed, of the chamber of the righteous being within sight and speaking distance of the chamber where the wicked are tormented, and of other details referred to in the story as narrated by Jesus. Not only do these concepts appear in the writings of Josephus, but they are to be found in other Jewish literature. Thus we read concerning hades: (1) that hades was composed of two chambers (2 Esdras 4:41); (2) that one of these chambers was for the righteous; the other for the wicked (Midrash, on Ruth 1:1); (3) that the righteous inhabit one chamber (Wisdom of Solomon 3:1); the wicked the other, where they are accursed, scourged, and tormented (Enoch 22:9-13; Talmud Erubin 19a); (4) that the inhabitants of one chamber are visible to, and within speaking distance of, the inhabitants of the other chamber (Midrash, on Eccl. 7:14); (5) that the righteous are welcomed into hades by companies of ministering angels (Talmud Kethuboth 104a; 4 Ezra 7:85-87, 91-95); (6) that the righteous are received into hades by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (4 Maccabees 13:17); and (7) that the righteous, as part of their reward, sit "in Abraham's lap" (Talmud Kiddushin 72 b). And Josephus gives this testimony:
They also believe that souls have an immortal vigour in them, and that under the earth there will be rewards or punishments, according as they have lived virtuously or viciously in this life; and the latter are to be detained in an everlasting prison, but that the former shall have power to revive and live again. Antiquities xviii. 1. 3.
Such was the setting of current concepts, or traditions, concerning hades as the home of the dead, at the time that Jesus referred to it in the parable.
to the testimony of Josephus it is worth do add, that he acknowledges that such beliefs had no fundation in the Thora and the Prophets but in the Platonic belief of the immortality of the soul

Quote:
Josephus and the Dead Sea Scrolls. Traditionalists often cite Josephus' description of the Essene belief about the immortality of the soul and the eternal punishment of the wicked to support their contention that such a belief was widely accepted in New Testament times. Let us look at the text closely before making any comment. Josephus tells us that the Essenes adopted from the Greeks not only the notion that "the souls are immortal, and continue for ever," but also the belief that "the good souls have their habitations beyond the ocean," in a region where the weather is perfect, while "bad souls [are cast in] a dark and tempestuous den, full of never-ceasing punishments." Josephus continues explaining that such a belief derives from Greek "fables" and is built "on the supposition that the souls are immortal" and that "bad men . . . suffer immortal punishment after death." He calls such beliefs "an unavoidable bait for such as have once had a taste for their [Greek] philosophy." It is significant that Josephus attributes the belief in the immortality of the soul and in unending punishment not to the teachings of the Old Testament, but to Greek "fables," which sectarian Jews, like the Essenes, found irresistible. Such a comment presupposes that not all the Jews had accepted these beliefs. In fact, indications are that even among the Essenes were those who did not share such beliefs. For example, the Dead Sea Scrolls, which are generally associated with the Essene community, speak clearly of the total annihilation of sinners.
Hell: Eternal Torment or Annihilation

Last edited by svenM; 10-23-2009 at 12:05 PM..
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Old 10-23-2009, 01:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by svenM View Post
the Sadducees e.g. believed no such thing
Yes, as far as I know the Sadducee believed that when you died you were totally unconscious.

That is why we call them "Sad-you-see"...LOL

(Oh and I tend to skip posts that are just someone reading to me...)
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Old 10-23-2009, 01:28 PM
 
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trettep....got another question?
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Old 10-23-2009, 06:04 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
trettep....got another question?
No, not at the moment. I usually do this Alan, I probe. I give a challenge if someone wants to stick to the world then I leave them to it. But some like to seek out the things I'm saying so I give them more. If you want to believe that God is going to use a literal fire then you have chosen to believe that God's fight is against flesh and blood. I don't see it that way at all.

Paul
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Old 10-23-2009, 06:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by trettep View Post
No, not at the moment...
Well that's too bad...I was on a roll and wanted to stretch my theological muscles.

I felt that my last answer concerning the Lord's use of fire as a tool and his servant was one of my best answers in a while...
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