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Old 10-25-2009, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Ever question why he didn't want to send word to warn his sister?
But then again, Jesus never said the rich man had any sisters, so I guess he didn't.....nevermind then, I was thinking of someone else....
Still believe it isn't a parable?
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Old 10-25-2009, 10:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Still believe it isn't a parable?
It's like I write and write, being oh so very careful, and no one bothers to read a word....

As I have said,as I say, and as I will always say in the future.
The thing that is different about this account is that here and only here Jesus tells a story where he named names.

This marks this story out as a bit different than the parables.
This reads more now like a true historical account of this one well-known guy named Lazarus.

The key question is that we have yet to prove beyond a doubt - Is that Lazarus that appears in the story of the "rich man in hell" is the very same Lazarus that is the brother of Mary and Martha?, and if that means he also is known as "Simon the leper" ?

If Lazarus of the "rich man in flames" story is both Lazarus who was raised back to life, and Simon, then this account of his time in the afterlife is far, far, different than a normal invented teaching story that were not based on known people and true facts.

My own feelings on this question of "Who is this Lazarus?" is:
That in the reaction to him by the Jews, (and the fact that for a while the Jews wanted to kill Lazarus again as badly as they wanted to kill Jesus), that this points out to us that they are one and the same = Lazarus/ Lazarus/Simon!

It would be hard to understand the Jews seeking to kill Lazarus just because he came back to life, in the light that there were others like the little girl that were also brought back to life that they seem to ignore .

The need to kill him supports the idea that the Lazarus "raised to life" is Lazarus in the "rich man in hell story"

This also fills in and colors the last statement Jesus made about this story, where Jesus says that people would not believe even if one were to rise from the dead.
Now the traditional understanding of that comment is that Jesus was talking about himself.
And this might be the case.
But it also might be the case to say that Jesus was pointing to Lazarus too...

This means that the story that Jesus told about the Lost burning in hell forever, is supported by the story Lazarus told everyone about what he saw while in paradise.

And that is what got Lazarus in trouble for.
I noticed that the Jews that were seeking to kill him were called "Chief Priests"
Instead of repenting "the chief priests and the Pharisees" plotted to kill Jesus and Lazarus .

Now I'm not 100% sure who the writer John was calling the "Chief Priests", but the way he then also lists the "Pharisees" it may be a hint that the "Chief priests" were Sadducee who had assumed many positions of power and authority in the Jewish Temple system.

The Sadducee also rejected the stories told of the after life.
The story of the rich man burning in hell that Jesus told, as well as any stories supporting it that Lazarus told, would be totally against the way the Sadducee believed...

Thus while the story of Lazarus is clearly able to teach lessons, (just as the typical parable does), it also has this extra slant that it is about real people experiencing real events in the afterlife....


Now as for the way some Bible footnotes try to compare the 5 brothers of the rich man to other well-known people in the Old test?


My view:
There are always going to be ways to take any story about Jesus and find new ways to look at it...
The thing to keep in mind is that sometimes in the rush to find a new 'secret" that was hidden (until we found it), we overlook some big flaws in our little system....Like the fact that the rich man with the 5 brothers seems to not have a sister?....

If Jesus had pointed out that the rich man had a sister, and perhaps even tossed out her name?
Or had jesus given us the name of the rich man and it matched another's?
, well THEN we might be able to draw some other connections to the Old Test.
It would still not mean that the events talked about in this story were not true and historical based on the facts, but it might add more color to the story.
...but lacking a sister all we have is a near-miss to more well known names in the Bible....
+++
There, that is what I think of the account of Lazarus and the rich man.

Any questions?

Last edited by alanMolstad; 10-25-2009 at 11:15 AM..
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Old 10-25-2009, 02:27 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,575,399 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
It's like I write and write, being oh so very careful, and no one bothers to read a word....
I know the feeling.

What you may be missing here is that Jesus always spoke to the masses (and especially the religious leaders) in parables. It was not his goal for them to 'see' or be saved at this time.

Matt. 13:
10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" 11 Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 "For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13 "Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Matt. 13:34 All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable. 35 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet: "I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES; I WILL UTTER THINGS HIDDEN SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD."
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Old 10-25-2009, 02:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
I know the feeling.

What you may be missing here is that Jesus always spoke to the masses (and especially the religious leaders) in parables.
and...as I said...
the way Jesus in this one story has named names , does mark this one story out as being different.

What is different?

This story is connected to a real person.


The person is not just an 'unknown" but was someone that perhaps you could go up to and ask them..."Did you really see Abraham?"

The fact that this story is connected by name to a real person is important, and so we must not just lump it in with a bunch of invented stories that had no basis or foundation in historical fact.

This story of a real named person by the name of Lazarus reads now more like the telling of a true historical account.

It still could teach us lessons, so don't think that it should not be seen as a teaching tool of Christ.
But let us then now also consider some of it's lessons:

The dead are awake.
Both they in Paradise, and they in the fires of damnation.

The dead in hell are in fire and in bitter pain...

This is too clearly shown to us that there is no point in debate.

There is no way for the damned to escape

Jesus really hits this one point very hard in this story. The lost suffer without hope of relief forever.

That the person who is asked to come back to life and warn the 5 brothers, is at the time of the telling of this story, very much dead
.
This seems to clearly point away from that person being Jesus.
Jesus only appeared to believers after his death, however Lazarus was raised to life again and appeared to all, both believer and nonbeliever.
So the final comment that Jesus made concerning one raised from the dead, seems to be talking about Lazarus whom he had raised.

This explains why the "Chief Priests" wanted to also kill Lazarus so much.
The very fact is, that the Sadducee totally rejected much of the story of the afterlife that Jesus talked about.
Therefore Lazarus being an eyewitness to the truth of what Jesus was saying also was seen as a threat to their belief system
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Old 10-25-2009, 03:16 PM
 
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Alan,
If this parable is about what really happens when one dies then you must conclude that:
1. those who receive evil in this life get a free ticket to heaven.
2. those who receive good in this life get a free ticket to hell.

Who needs Jesus? Just make sure you are on the receiving end of evil.
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Old 10-25-2009, 04:40 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,491,788 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Alan,
If this parable is about what really happens when one dies then you must conclude that:
1. those who receive evil in this life get a free ticket to heaven.
2. those who receive good in this life get a free ticket to hell.

Who needs Jesus? Just make sure you are on the receiving end of evil.
As I said before, we are not really told anything about the faith of the people in the story.
So because there is a lack of that back story, we can't just add our own meanings and try to conclude that sick poor people all go to heaven.

Nor can we say that based on this story all fit, rich people all got to hell.

To do that is to be guilty of twisting the scriptures to fit our ideas, or making them speak where they are silent.

What we can say for sure deals with what the story tells us for sure.
That being the following:

#1 -The dead are awake in the after life
#2 - That the Lost suffer
#3 - That Hell has a nice big fire going
#4 - That the Lost face an everlasting future of suffering with no chance they can ever get any relief.



These ideas you can support with the text in a very clear and direct manner.
No need to guess, no need to add your own answers where the Text is lacking...
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Old 10-25-2009, 05:32 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,456,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
As I said before, we are not really told anything about the faith of the people in the story.
So because there is a lack of that back story, we can't just add our own meanings and try to conclude that sick poor people all go to heaven.

Nor can we say that based on this story all fit, rich people all got to hell.

To do that is to be guilty of twisting the scriptures to fit our ideas, or making them speak where they are silent.

What we can say for sure deals with what the story tells us for sure.
That being the following:

#1 -The dead are awake in the after life
#2 - That the Lost suffer
#3 - That Hell has a nice big fire going
#4 - That the Lost face an everlasting future of suffering with no chance they can ever get any relief.



These ideas you can support with the text in a very clear and direct manner.
No need to guess, no need to add your own answers where the Text is lacking...
Alan, if this is not a parable then Jesus is a liar.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever; There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."

Ecc 9:10 All that your hand finds to do, do with your vigor, For there is no doing or devising or knowledge or wisdom in Hades where you are going."

The rich man was in Hades.

According to the parable, the Rich man and Lazarus knew quite alot in spite of what Ecclesiasted 9:5 says.

According to the parable, the Rich man in Hades was doing quite a lot of devising and had knowledge and wisdom as to what to do in spite of what Ecclesiasted 9:10 states as truth. This is against the truth God revealed to Israel and that truth is inspired and cannot be broken.

I guess you don't have a problem with Jesus being a liar.
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Old 10-25-2009, 06:14 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,491,788 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Ecc 9:5
Ecc 9:10

as I said before when someone tried to twist the book of Ecc into being part of this topic...

UNDER THE SUN!......


UNDER THE SUN, UNDER THE SUN, AND,.,,,under the Sun!!!!!!

all that was written from the point of view of "under the sun"

Everything is only talking about stuff as it appears to us who are alive 'under the sun"

"Under the sun" means what it sounds like it means,....everything on the earth that you can see or point to under the sun.

But, heaven is NOT under the sun!

Lets say that one more time in case you dont catch the importance of it...

Heaven, paradise, hell, the lake of fire, all that stuff that deals with the afterlife is NOT UNDER THE SUN!!!!!!

Therefore nothing spoken about in that book of the bible is talking about the reality of Heaven...
It has no bearing on our topic, so it is moot.
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Old 10-25-2009, 06:27 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,491,788 times
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YouTube - Is hell conscious, continual, eternal punishment?
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Old 10-25-2009, 06:30 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,456,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
as I said before when someone tried to twist the book of Ecc into being part of this topic...

UNDER THE SUN!......


UNDER THE SUN, UNDER THE SUN, AND,.,,,under the Sun!!!!!!

all that was written from the point of view of "under the sun"

Everything is only talking about stuff as it appears to us who are alive 'under the sun"

"Under the sun" means what it sounds like it means,....everything on the earth that you can see or point to under the sun.

But, heaven is NOT under the sun!

Lets say that one more time in case you dont catch the importance of it...

Heaven, paradise, hell, the lake of fire, all that stuff that deals with the afterlife is NOT UNDER THE SUN!!!!!!

Therefore nothing spoken about in that book of the bible is talking about the reality of Heaven...
It has no bearing on our topic, so it is moot.

Good Lord Alan, where do you get your thoughts? The heavens are under the sun. The birds fly in the heavens.
And the graves are under the sun. Hades, which is the unseen is where you go when you die which is the tomb. While in the tomb you are "not seen" any more, hence it is called the unseen or Hades where the "H" is just a heavy breathing and the 'a' means "not" and des is "seen."

Ecclesiastes is all about living and dying. It has every bearing on what happens when we die. Just because you say it does not does not make it so.
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