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Old 10-25-2009, 06:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Good Lord Alan, where do you get your thoughts? The heavens are under the sun.
Nope,,nothing that has anything to do at all with the afterlife, is under the sun.
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Old 10-25-2009, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Nope,,nothing that has anything to do at all with the afterlife, is under the sun.
But Genesis 3 (listing the consequences of sin) and the entirety of the Old and New testaments all agree with Eccl. on the nature of Sheol/Hades/the Grave.

To those who don't like Eccl. - Will Ps. work for you?

Ps. 115:17 It is not the dead who praise the LORD, those who go down to silence;

No it won't work, it won't because church tradition is more influential over some than anything else.

Let's rewrite it! Ps. 115:17 "some of the dead be praising you in Abraham's bosom while the lost one's are screaming and having conversations with others across the great divide"
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Old 10-25-2009, 07:53 PM
 
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again, from our point of view (Under the sun) the dead know nothing,
they dont do anything,
they dont speak,
they dont dance,
they just lay there and rot.

But from God's point of view the dead are not so dead after all.
This is the lesson we get from this story that Jesus told.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT4Aq...eature=related
The dead are very much awake.
They speak, they feel, that cry out in pain.

Last edited by alanMolstad; 10-25-2009 at 08:39 PM..
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Old 10-26-2009, 05:27 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,432,516 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
again, from our point of view (Under the sun) the dead know nothing,
they dont do anything,
they dont speak,
they dont dance,
they just lay there and rot.

But from God's point of view the dead are not so dead after all.
This is the lesson we get from this story that Jesus told.
The dead are very much awake.
They speak, they feel, that cry out in pain.
You don't surely mean "from God's point of view." You mean from the pagan's point of view because it is rank paganism to believe in the immortality of the soul.

Isaiah was given to know that the dead are really dead and was inspired to write this:

"Indeed the unseen [Hades] cannot acclaim You, nor can death praise You; and those who descend into a crypt cannot look forward to Your faithfulness. The living! the living one! he is acclaiming You as I do today; the father makes known to his sons Your faithfulness" (+Isa.38:18,19).

Alan, "if there is no resurrection then we all perish and our faith is in vain." (cf 1 Cor.15). There has to be a resurrection from the dead in order to be alive. The ONLY time we meet the Lord is when the dead come out of their graves and meet those believers who are alive at that time and will be changed and they, TOGETHER will meet the Lord in the air. Read 1 Thessalonians 4:7 if you don't believe me.

Cathalocism and Protestantism have both been taken in by paganism on this subject.
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Old 10-26-2009, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Germany
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there is a further reason why that story must be a parable and Abrahams bossom does not exist:

Genesis 25:8

And Abraham expired and died in a good old age, old and full [of days]; and was gathered to his peoples.

Abrahams ancestors were no believers, yet the bible says Abraham was gathered to his peoples (or his fathers) when he died, this can hardly refer to his body as he was buried in a strange land, if I remember right.

Did Abraham went to Abraham's bossom when he did? where did the rigtheous dead such as Noah went to that lived before Abraham?
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Old 10-26-2009, 05:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
Abraham's bosom
a lot of people get mixed up by the term "Abraham's bosom"

If a person is new, or if they have not really thought about it, then the term "Abraham's bosom" might seem like a title of a place...like the "Super Dome....or the White House...or perhaps an address, like 3rd Street North

But that would be silly...

a better way to understand the term is "A Hug from your father"

or...

"A father's loving embrace"

If you are a dad, then you know that your embrace of your child is not so much a "place" , for like the hope of Jews to be gathered to Abraham's bosom, it is speaking of an outward sign of deep love.

In the story of Lazarus and the rich man, we see that after his death, Lazarus was taken by the angels to Abraham's side.

This is speaking of love of a father to his son who has joined him.
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Old 10-27-2009, 03:54 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,707,770 times
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God Himself is the father of all men, not Abraham, this story further implies that Abraham is lord over the netherworld and able to raise the dead if he wanted - it seems he only refused to do so. Why is the rich man adressing Abraham, not God?

you see many problems with this story to understand it literal...
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Old 10-27-2009, 04:24 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,567,579 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post

This is speaking of love of a father to his son who has joined him.
AS He watches (and listens) to his other son languishing in anguish for ever?

But Abraham said, "Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things;

The traditional interpretation sick. It's a sick view, contradictory and senseless in every way.
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Old 10-27-2009, 04:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
God Himself is the father of all men, not Abraham, ..
Actually, the position of Abraham as being the "father" of all Jews is very much part of the Jewish way of life.

This does not mean for one second that any Jews felt that Abraham was "God Almighty" and so its silly to accuse them of doing so.
But I dont think anyone who knows squat about the Bible would do so....
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Old 10-27-2009, 04:43 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
AS He watches .....
Yes, one of the key parts of he story of Lazarus and the rich man is that the ones in hell can see very clearly the people who are enjoying paradise.

This must only add to their sufferings ...LOL

Remember , they only have themselves to blame for their being stuck in the fires of hell forever, so this is God's justice at work.

This is why when the rich man was heard begging for even one drop of water from a dipped finger, that the answer was, "Sorry Charley, You ain't going anywhere, so better get used to it"
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