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Old 10-16-2009, 12:49 AM
 
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I wanted to add that i understand the difficulty with this parable and i am left at odds with the seeming disparate ideas associated with the parable that leave much be desired for a certain interpretation of it.


Note that the parable of Lazarus and the rich man is only found in the gospel of Luke. Also Jesus told the parable of Lazarus and the rich man some time before Lazarus whom Jesus resurrected ever died.

Lazarus was the brother of Martha, and we are told that Martha had anointed Christ with a very expensive oil. In the gospel of Luke the house in which Martha anointed Christ feet was said to be her own. In the other Gospel it is said to be the house of simon the plepper. It was so expensive and so much of it did she use that the disciples complained when she did anoint him saying the money could have been better used for the poor. This coupled with the fact that Lazarus was only said to have become sick and not that he had leprosy, and the fact that he was buried in a rich mans tomb, seems to discount Lazarus whom Jesus resurrected as being the same Lazarus of the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. As Lazarus of the parable was a beggar, while the Lazarus whom Christ resurrected was obviously quite affluent.

It is a Catholic tradition that Simon the leper was also Lazarus whom Christ resurrected, but there is no evidence in the bible of this beyond what is circumstantial. Nevertheless even if Lazarus whom Jesus resurrected was the same Simon the leper, there is no getting passed the fact that both Simon the leper and Lazarus were affluent men, and could not be understood to have been beggars.

This is certainly worthy of much deeper investigation. I will do my best to understand, and share what i find.

I am looking into the fact that one of Jesus disciples was called Simon the Canaanite. Some believe he was not a Jew at all, and it could be construed that the very same Simon the Canaanite, was Simon the leper, was Lazarus whom Christ resurrected, and the same disciple "whom Jesus loved". If this is the case the fact that Lazarus is called a beggar in the parable, if it be the same lazarus whom Jesus would later resurrect, could be a symbolic reference to his being a gentile(Canaanite) instead of a literal beggar.

Very interesting thoughts to say the least.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-16-2009 at 01:08 AM..
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Old 10-16-2009, 12:56 AM
 
Location: southern california
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dogs dont need you to be important and successful to love you neither does god.
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Old 10-16-2009, 01:59 AM
 
Location: Florida
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I have studied these scriptures with the Lord and others. I do not believe this is a parable. I believe it would of been stated so. It is an additional teaching and there is much in this spiritually of a time before judgement and all who are believers go to Abrahams Bosom and unbelievers go to immediate torment. When Jesus say's we will never die, I believe this, only the body will die. I will immediately go to the Lord and awaiting the resurrection of my new body. My spirit/soul has already been resurrected and hidden in Christ.
Luke was a doctor and mighty in the Lord and he investigated very throughly the life of Christ. There were many visions at the time of the disciples and Paul. Luke was extremely close to Paul and his ministries.
If you noticed in this teaching, the rich man was still only thinking of himself and still wanting the things of the earth. Water, someone to wait on him and someone to tell his brothers. He still never offered to repent or tell Lazarus he was sorry. He wanted all to know he was in torment. Left in selfishness for eternity.
Also, if people do not believe the Prophets even if Jesus came today, they wouldn't believe.
The Word of God is flawless.
The question I have is, what scripture(s) contradict?
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Old 10-16-2009, 02:26 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Why would the rich man be asking Abraham to send someone to his brothers? Judgement has not taken place, yet? All the previous sins were paid for by Christ.
Ephesians 4:8 This is why it [ Or God] says: "When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men." [ Psalm 68:18]
All of the previous saved were released from the old way. They did all the hard work for us, in every way.
Luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
He did not wait to be with the Lord. The day he died was the day he went to Paradise.
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Old 10-16-2009, 02:32 AM
 
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercy777 View Post
The question I have is, what scripture(s) contradict?
Ecc. 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going. (NAS)

There is no activity or knowledge in Sheol/Hades (AKA: the grave).

But the ancient 'pagan' nations believed that there was. Some of the ancient Jewish religious leaders apparently picked up these concepts, probably while in captivity to those nations.

AISI Jesus turned their own false concept upside down to make a point.

In the pharisees' version THEY were (in their own eyes) obviously blessed by God and the poor sick beggars obviously cursed by God. That also explains why faith in God was not even mentioned in the parable at all.

No place else in scripture is there any activity or thought in Sheol/Hades, and in fact the opposite is stated several times.

Also 'one time' mentions: "Bosom of Abraham", and the idea that angels carry deceased poor/sick beggars to paradise when they die.

Hmmmmmm...
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Old 10-16-2009, 05:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercy777 View Post
Why would the rich man be asking Abraham to send someone to his brothers? Judgement has not taken place, yet? All the previous sins were paid for by Christ.
Ephesians 4:8 This is why it [ Or God] says: "When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men." [ Psalm 68:18]
Dear mercy777, a more literal, closer to the Greek translation of Ephesians 4:8 states: "Wherefore He is saying, Ascending on high, He captures captivity And gives gifts to mankind."

Psa 68:18 You ascend on high, You capture captivity, You apportion gifts among mankind, And also for the stubborn, to tabernacle with Yah Elohim."

Christ captured the captivity which kept them captive to the law.

Quote:
All of the previous saved were released from the old way. They did all the hard work for us, in every way.
Luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
He did not wait to be with the Lord. The day he died was the day he went to Paradise.
A better translation of Luke 22:43 is: Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise."

Jesus was not telling the thief that he and Jesus would be in paradise the day that day they died. That would be impossible for the paradise comes when the millennial reign comes in the future. Jesus was just telling him when that occurrs that the thief would be there with Him in that day.

The thief, being a Jew, and obviously knew of the kingdom to come told Jesus: Luk 23:42 And he said to Jesus, "Be reminded of me, Lord, whenever Thou mayest be coming in Thy kingdom." When the kingdom comes, then will it be a paradise and then will the thief be resurrected from the dead and enter into that paradisical reign.
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Old 10-16-2009, 05:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Lazarus was the brother of Martha, and we are told that Martha had anointed Christ with a very expensive oil.
It was Martha with the oil?
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Old 10-16-2009, 05:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
A better translation of Luke 22:43 is:..
Is found in what bible?
What translation has that wording?
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Old 10-16-2009, 06:42 AM
Status: "God saves ALL" (set 10 days ago)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I dont see how you can say that ...

Look at the language used ...

Luke 16:21
And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.


Mat 15:22-28
22And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

The Canaanite women was seeking Christs help but he would not help her at first because she was a gentile, until she proved her faith by saying about herself what was common for the Jews so say of the gentiles. The symbolism is obvious.

Lazarus in the story is said to have leprosy because that is symbolic of the fact that he was a cursed gentile, more fully symbolized in that he was outside the gate and amongst the dogs.

If you cant tell what he was saying by this alone i question you exegetical abilities ... It couldn't be more obvious.

So if this is not what the parable is about what do you believe it to mean, or do you as well not believe it to be a parable at all?
Then tell me why would a gentile want to be laid outside the gait of the Israelites?

Ironmaw, you need to not be so fast to count everything that disagrees with you as false.

Paul

Last edited by trettep; 10-16-2009 at 06:51 AM..
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Old 10-16-2009, 06:59 AM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,980,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifesigns64 View Post
Hey Lego . . . thanks for summing up the article for us . . . I always thought Lazarus was a real human being, and that Mary and Martha were his sisters . . . thanks for asking on the other thread, my eyes are recooping finally, blessings, Lifesigns64
Hi lifesigns64, no problem.

Yes there is some more confusion because there is another Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead - perhaps that is the Lazarus you were thinking of.

To clarify:
- Jesus raised a Lazarus from the dead in John 11. This is NOT the Lazarus from Luke 16
- Jesus spoke about "Lazarus" and the Rich man - this "Lazarus" is a symbol for Eliezer, Abraham's faithful servant

You can debate whether Lazarus in Luke 16 is Eliezer or not, but certainly there are 2 different Lazarus's that Jesus talked about here.

.. Ah I see now Ironmaw already clarified that too.

Be well..
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