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Old 10-16-2009, 08:42 AM
 
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
Let me explain directly how I believe: the spirit is (to be) dominate, and the soul subservient. At creation, the spirit is one with God and the soul has very little to do with that relationship (it's still that way today, as our spirit communes with God).

When the fall occurred, the soul (the mind and emotions) took dominion. The spirit - and its ability to sense the presence of God, to commune with Him - was shoved to the side, just as it is today. When we are regenerated, the soul is commanded to take its rightful place as servant, and the spirit is to be lord of our nature...

...but guess what is going on now? Christians are still living in the soul realm, going by feelings and allowing their carnal mind to lead, just as we have all our lives. But God is taking us through trials and schoolings, to teach us how to die to the flesh and its soulish leadings.
I agree.

And, the passage (Heb 4:11-16) about the Word dividing the spirit and soul: I think that it can be very difficult (impossible?) for us to discern whether we are operating out of the spirit or out of the soul, but the Living Word is powerful enough to reveal this to us ... and lead us to the grace of God when we see how fall short we often fall!
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Old 10-16-2009, 09:05 AM
 
Location: Frisco, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
I agree.

And, the passage (Heb 4:11-16) about the Word dividing the spirit and soul: I think that it can be very difficult (impossible?) for us to discern whether we are operating out of the spirit or out of the soul, but the Living Word is powerful enough to reveal this to us ... and lead us to the grace of God when we see how fall short we often fall!
Very much so.

I personally feel that we can only "survive" from the nature we are made of. If we are carnal, that is what we will exude. That flesh will never change, reform, obey - it is what it is.

So, how not to be led of the flesh? Kill it, mortify it, crucify it. That's what the Holy Spirit is about, as He always points us to Jesus; as we look to Him when we are brought to the place of trial, temptation, end of our ourselves...it's at that place when our spirit will "kick in" and join His leading.

It's at this crucial place that many don't call on Him, but rather do what comes naturally - get frustrated, lash out, stumble, blame others...especially Satan...when it was God that brought them to that place to grow.
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Old 10-16-2009, 10:08 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,647,388 times
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My problem with this is that the word for soul is also translated life...

So God breathed on the flesh with God's breath (the word used for spirit of God) animated the now living soul... so the soul is life... the spirit is not human, it is God's ...

Gen. 2:7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
Breathed: naphach; to breath, to blow
Breath (of life): neshamah; divine inspiration, intellect, spirit
living being: nephesh; a soul, living being, life, self, person, (this word is translated "soul" 238 times!)

So isn't it true that all living beings are souls? even animals are living beings. (see Gen. 1)

Explain to me how it is that God breathed a spirit into the flesh and it became a living soul yet someone can claim that human's don't have a spirit?

That seriously confuses me.

1 Thess. 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Spirit: pneuma; breath, spirit or 241 times is translated Spirit (of God).
Soul: psuché; breath, life, soul, mind, heart
Body: sóma; body, substance

Are these three different parts? or do they overlap?

I tend to think that it is the spirit and body together that make a soul.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
soul: psuché; breath, life, soul, mind, heart
spirit: pneuma; breath, spirit or 241 times is translated Spirit (of God)

Isn't it saying that the word of God divides physical (soul) and spiritual (spirit)?

It seems to me that without the spirit the body is just substance.. so how can someone say that people don't have a spirit until they are christians? That makes no sense to me! HELP!
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Old 10-16-2009, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Frisco, TX
7,556 posts, read 11,868,824 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
My problem with this is that the word for soul is also translated life...

So God breathed on the flesh with God's breath (the word used for spirit of God) animated the now living soul... so the soul is life... the spirit is not human, it is God's ...

Gen. 2:7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
Breathed: naphach; to breath, to blow
Breath (of life): neshamah; divine inspiration, intellect, spirit
living being: nephesh; a soul, living being, life, self, person, (this word is translated "soul" 238 times!)

So isn't it true that all living beings are souls? even animals are living beings. (see Gen. 1)

Explain to me how it is that God breathed a spirit into the flesh and it became a living soul yet someone can claim that human's don't have a spirit?

That seriously confuses me.

1 Thess. 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Spirit: pneuma; breath, spirit or 241 times is translated Spirit (of God).
Soul: psuché; breath, life, soul, mind, heart
Body: sóma; body, substance

Are these three different parts? or do they overlap?

I tend to think that it is the spirit and body together that make a soul.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
soul: psuché; breath, life, soul, mind, heart
spirit: pneuma; breath, spirit or 241 times is translated Spirit (of God)

Isn't it saying that the word of God divides physical (soul) and spiritual (spirit)?

It seems to me that without the spirit the body is just substance.. so how can someone say that people don't have a spirit until they are christians? That makes no sense to me! HELP!
You covered a lot of turf there, but consider that our spirits are dormant until they are "awakened" if you will by the spirit of the Lord. We all have a spirit, but the soul has such power over the natural man - not in part because we are born into the "soul system" (turning inward for all our functions in life).

It's the reason we fight for our lives, rather than giving our life for a ransom; why we look out for number 1, instead of considering others; why it's easier to want proof, than to believe. The symptoms are endless.

The believer is aware that he is divided, the unbeliever not so. The purpose of the Christian life is - in short - to decrease our life and increase His. This can be accomplished by dying to the soul realm, and letting Him through our spirit.
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Old 10-16-2009, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,647,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
You covered a lot of turf there, but consider that our spirits are dormant until they are "awakened" if you will by the spirit of the Lord. We all have a spirit, but the soul has such power over the natural man - not in part because we are born into the "soul system" (turning inward for all our functions in life).

It's the reason we fight for our lives, rather than giving our life for a ransom; why we look out for number 1, instead of considering others; why it's easier to want proof, than to believe. The symptoms are endless.

The believer is aware that he is divided, the unbeliever not so. The purpose of the Christian life is - in short - to decrease our life and increase His. This can be accomplished by dying to the soul realm, and letting Him through our spirit.
Yes, I agree.. but the poster I quoted in the OP specifically said that man has NO spirit until becoming a christian. The soul (heart, mind) is prevalent in the body before God's intervention (yep just like the tv show) but is the human devoid of spirit? how is that biblical?
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Old 10-16-2009, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Indianapolis
4,325 posts, read 5,249,658 times
Reputation: 670
Actually, the soul is the real you. The soul is encased by the spirit and the spirit is encased with the material body. When we die, we leave the material body and go to the spirit world. As we progress, we slowly lose the spirit part of us and when we are at-one with God, all that is left is the soul and it's attributes and mind.
Animals have a spirit but no soul. The can be in the spirit world with us when we love them but they cannot progress as we do.
When Adam and Eve sinned, they lost the ability to become At-One with God through their soul. Jesus restored the connection and now everyone can progress as Jesus did.
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Old 10-16-2009, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 3,012,477 times
Reputation: 221
For all it may be worth, below is a bit of meat regarding spirits and souls as understood by Latter-day Saints. Click the following two links for much more, including many bible references and working links within the paragraphs.


http://scriptures.lds.org/en/gs/s/84


http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=words&last=soul&help=&wo=checked&searc h=soul&iw=sh&tx=checked&af=checked&hw=checked&sw=c hecked&bw=1





Spirit

That part of a living being which exists before mortal birth, which dwells in the physical body during mortality, and which exists after death as a separate being until the resurrection. All living things—mankind, animals, and plants—were spirits before any form of life existed upon the earth (Gen. 2: 4-5; Moses 3: 4-7). The spirit body looks like the physical body (1 Ne. 11: 11; Ether 3: 15-16; D&C 77: 2; D&C 129). Spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure than mortal element or matter (D&C 131: 7).


Every person is literally a son or a daughter of God, having been born as a spirit to Heavenly Parents before being born to mortal parents on the earth (Heb. 12: 9). Each person on earth has an immortal spirit body in addition to a body of flesh and bone. As sometimes defined in scripture, the spirit and the physical body together constitute the soul (Gen. 2: 7; D&C 88: 15; Moses 3: 7, 9, 19; Abr. 5: 7). A spirit can live without a physical body, but the physical body cannot live without the spirit (James 2: 26). Physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body. In the resurrection, the spirit is reunited with the same physical body of flesh and bone it possessed as a mortal, with two major differences: they will never be separated again, and the physical body will be immortal and perfected (Alma 11: 45; D&C 138: 16-17).


A spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have, Luke 24: 39. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God, Rom. 8: 16. Glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, 1 Cor. 6: 20. This body is the body of my spirit, Ether 3: 16. Man is spirit, D&C 93: 33. Christ ministered to the righteous spirits in paradise, D&C 138: 28-30 (1 Pet. 3: 18-19). Ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, Moses 6: 59. He stood among those that were spirits, Abr. 3: 23.


http://scriptures.lds.org/en/gs/s/84



Soul


"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12: 7

The scriptures speak of souls in three ways: 1. spirit beings, both premortal and postmortal (Alma 40: 11-14; Abr. 3: 23); 2. a spirit and a body united in mortality (Abr. 5: 7); and 3. an immortal, resurrected person whose spirit and body have become inseparably connected (Alma 40: 23; D&C 88: 15-16).

The mortal, physical structure of flesh and bones created in God’s image that is combined with a spirit to make up a living person. The physical bodies of all men and women will be reunited eternally with their spirits in the resurrection. The scriptures sometimes refer to a body and spirit joined together as a soul (Gen. 2: 7; D&C 88: 15; Moses 3: 7, 9, 19; Abr. 5: 7).


http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=words&last=soul&help=&wo=checked&searc h=soul&iw=sh&tx=checked&af=checked&hw=checked&sw=c hecked&bw=1
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Old 10-16-2009, 12:34 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,647,388 times
Reputation: 1694
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
For all it may be worth, below is a bit of meat regarding spirits and souls as understood by Latter-day Saints. Click the following two links for much more, including many bible references and working links within the paragraphs.


http://scriptures.lds.org/en/gs/s/84


http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=words&last=soul&help=&wo=checked&searc h=soul&iw=sh&tx=checked&af=checked&hw=checked&sw=c hecked&bw=1





Spirit

That part of a living being which exists before mortal birth, which dwells in the physical body during mortality, and which exists after death as a separate being until the resurrection. All living things—mankind, animals, and plants—were spirits before any form of life existed upon the earth (Gen. 2: 4-5; Moses 3: 4-7). The spirit body looks like the physical body (1 Ne. 11: 11; Ether 3: 15-16; D&C 77: 2; D&C 129). Spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure than mortal element or matter (D&C 131: 7).


Every person is literally a son or a daughter of God, having been born as a spirit to Heavenly Parents before being born to mortal parents on the earth (Heb. 12: 9). Each person on earth has an immortal spirit body in addition to a body of flesh and bone. As sometimes defined in scripture, the spirit and the physical body together constitute the soul (Gen. 2: 7; D&C 88: 15; Moses 3: 7, 9, 19; Abr. 5: 7). A spirit can live without a physical body, but the physical body cannot live without the spirit (James 2: 26). Physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body. In the resurrection, the spirit is reunited with the same physical body of flesh and bone it possessed as a mortal, with two major differences: they will never be separated again, and the physical body will be immortal and perfected (Alma 11: 45; D&C 138: 16-17).


A spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have, Luke 24: 39. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God, Rom. 8: 16. Glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, 1 Cor. 6: 20. This body is the body of my spirit, Ether 3: 16. Man is spirit, D&C 93: 33. Christ ministered to the righteous spirits in paradise, D&C 138: 28-30 (1 Pet. 3: 18-19). Ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, Moses 6: 59. He stood among those that were spirits, Abr. 3: 23.


http://scriptures.lds.org/en/gs/s/84



Soul


"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12: 7

The scriptures speak of souls in three ways: 1. spirit beings, both premortal and postmortal (Alma 40: 11-14; Abr. 3: 23); 2. a spirit and a body united in mortality (Abr. 5: 7); and 3. an immortal, resurrected person whose spirit and body have become inseparably connected (Alma 40: 23; D&C 88: 15-16).

The mortal, physical structure of flesh and bones created in God’s image that is combined with a spirit to make up a living person. The physical bodies of all men and women will be reunited eternally with their spirits in the resurrection. The scriptures sometimes refer to a body and spirit joined together as a soul (Gen. 2: 7; D&C 88: 15; Moses 3: 7, 9, 19; Abr. 5: 7).


http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?type=words&last=soul&help=&wo=checked&searc h=soul&iw=sh&tx=checked&af=checked&hw=checked&sw=c hecked&bw=1
I have to agree here. The spirit is immortal. The soul is the spirit joined to the flesh. This is all biblical...

Humans having NO SPIRIT until they accept God's spirit is hogwash..

They would not be alive! I know that some say unbelievers are spiritually dead BUT-that is not to imply that the spirit is not there just that it is not awakened to life yet!

Anyway.. I found the statement that humans have no spirit until they are Christians to be quite obnoxious! No wonder that same poster can send all unbelievers to burn for eternity.. they are no better than trees or grass!

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Old 10-16-2009, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Frisco, TX
7,556 posts, read 11,868,824 times
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I agree that our spirits are eternal, but it makes the (carnal) mind wonder: we have no memory of life until our toddler years, so it begs the question:

Is it the flesh that has cognitive recognition, and if so - could Jesus remember the time before He was born?
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Old 10-16-2009, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,647,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
I agree that our spirits are eternal, but it makes the (carnal) mind wonder: we have no memory of life until our toddler years, so it begs the question:

Is it the flesh that has cognitive recognition, and if so - could Jesus remember the time before He was born?
That's a good question.

I don't remember past 4 or 5... but my husband had something traumatic happen at 3 and remembers from there..

It is not probable the Jesus remembered anything before birth but i don't know how you'd reconcile that with Jesus as God...
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