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Old 10-16-2009, 11:32 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,395,647 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Pragmatism: a philosophical movement or system having various forms, but generally stressing practical consequences as constituting the essential criterion in determining meaning, truth, or value.
Ok thanks Pleroo... I am still having a hard time understanding what is wrong with pragmatism... Isn't that what humans do on a daily basis to determine what things to focus on and what things to avoid?

If you run your car off the road you may die... is that pragmaticism?
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Old 10-16-2009, 11:43 AM
 
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Kat, I believe what Fundamentalist is asking if we allow practicality to determine our morality. Is that about it, Fundamentalist?
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Old 10-16-2009, 11:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Kat, I believe what Fundamentalist is asking if we allow practicality to determine our morality. Is that about it, Fundamentalist?
Yes but "our" morality is not ours so to speak but God's. Through peer pressure, threat of persecution, indoctrination we find ways to usurp God's authority for man's
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Old 10-16-2009, 11:46 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,489,748 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I am still having a hard time understanding what is wrong with pragmatism...
Inside the church you just have to always be careful...

you cant correct every flaw you see, or you will be too busy to see anything.
But you must be ready to stand up when you see people putting up with too much to allow.
=====================
Like you are in church and sitting right ahead of you area young brother an a sister bickering.

You want them to shut up, but you are pragmatic about it,

you know that you can put up with them bickering over the mess it would be to try to get them to shut up.

Then the boy reaches over and hits the sister hard with his fist in the mouth and knocks her to the floor.

Pragmatism over!
you stand up and put a stop to that....

You no longer care that its going to be a mess.
You are no longer willing to put up with a little error for the greater good you can get .
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Old 10-16-2009, 11:53 AM
 
15,057 posts, read 7,557,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Yes but "our" morality is not ours so to speak but God's. Through peer pressure, threat of persecution, indoctrination we find ways to usurp God's authority for man's
I understand, I think. Basically, are we willing to compromise what we believe are Biblical principles if it seems expedient to do so?

I'm not willing to do that but I also don't think that things are always as cut and dried and easy to discern as we want them to be which can lead to us discerning wrongly at times. Again, following Christ isn't about following a set of rules.
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Old 10-16-2009, 12:56 PM
 
37,579 posts, read 25,282,626 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
I understand, I think. Basically, are we willing to compromise what we believe are Biblical principles if it seems expedient to do so?

I'm not willing to do that but I also don't think that things are always as cut and dried and easy to discern as we want them to be which can lead to us discerning wrongly at times. Again, following Christ isn't about following a set of rules.
Unfortunately, Fundy does believe we are supposed to just be "rule followers" or "obeyers" in his terms. That mindset dominates and precludes the development of true agape love and understanding. It denies Jesus . . . in that it refuses to see things through Jesus's eyes and mind. The Almighty Jehovah commanding obedience for God's glory is his mindset.
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Old 10-16-2009, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
I understand, I think. Basically, are we willing to compromise what we believe are Biblical principles if it seems expedient to do so?

I'm not willing to do that but I also don't think that things are always as cut and dried and easy to discern as we want them to be which can lead to us discerning wrongly at times. Again, following Christ isn't about following a set of rules.
1 Cor. 10:28-29 But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake--the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience?

Romans 14:16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;

1 Corinthians 8:8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat.

Whatever I do.. I do with the freedom of my relationship with God... It is my conscience that is affected by my actions..

Who are we to judge another man's conscience?

I don't see that as compromise.. If a guy (for example) wants to wear a dress... how is that a compromise? It is his conscience that tells him it is okay...who am I to say that God forbids it? That would be taking the name of the Lord in vain as I don't have any idea what is going on in the relationship of one man to God only my own relationship with God.

Remember, Christ said:
Matt. 7:2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Meaning that if you are judging someone else you are using your measure to measure them when it is your measure that will be used for you, not for them. If you think it is wrong to be homosexual then don't be one. But you cannot say to them that God says it is wrong.. that is defaming their relationship with God... Who are you to judge what is good for them as evil?

It is none of my business what they do in their relationship with God..

I don't see that as compromise... compromise would be if I took on their behavior knowing it was wrong with my measurement of what is right under God.
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Old 10-16-2009, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,395,647 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Unfortunately, Fundy does believe we are supposed to just be "rule followers" or "obeyers" in his terms. That mindset dominates and precludes the development of true agape love and understanding. It denies Jesus . . . in that it refuses to see things through Jesus's eyes and mind. The Almighty Jehovah commanding obedience for God's glory is his mindset.
Yes!
2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

If you know Christ and are free in Christ yet become entangled in slavery then you are worse off than if you were not free in Christ to begin with!

It seems that those who profess rules and requirements under the Law are enslaved once again to the law and are worse off than those who have not found freedom in Christ!

Romans 7:6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

If we died with Christ and enter into the freedom of Christ... how is it we enslave ourselves the the law and requirements of the written code again?

I am a freeman... a person who is alive in Christ and all things are lawful but not all things are beneficial.

1 Corinthians 10:23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify.

So becoming a slave to religion is forsaking the freedom of being born again to life in Christ!

I can't stand it when people say that if you are in Christ you must do this and that.. YOU must but must I? No for we each have a relationship with Christ that cannot be judged by others.

If I am trying to teach others I must be able to do that which I teach. If your pastor teaches that adultery is wrong, yet is an adulterer.. then he is not edifying God in his teaching, but is he unsaved? NO but he is probably going to be UNMARRIED...
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Old 10-16-2009, 11:49 PM
 
Location: Florida
580 posts, read 632,605 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Do we as Christians allow or support something bad to take place because the results can be good?

For instance gay adoption. I hear alot of Christians say, well as long as these unwanted children are adopted into a loving home regardless if they are gay then I see that as being ok because the good that can come out of it. That's pragmatism

Are we saying the ends justifies the means? If something is wrong then its wrong, it doesn't matter if what you perceive as being "good" can come out of it can somehow NOW make it right?
No support for this. No one knows the future. And why would anyone want to see a child adopted into sin. That is not love. Compromised Faith.
God is the Father of the fatherless.
Matthew 7:17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.


Mark 3:24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

Mark 3:25
If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

Ephesians 5:11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
1 John 1:6
If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.

In the case of gay adoption, I do believe the child or children are saved until they come of age to know the right from the wrong and God will protect his own and teach them.
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Old 10-17-2009, 12:07 AM
 
37,579 posts, read 25,282,626 times
Reputation: 5860
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yes!
2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

If you know Christ and are free in Christ yet become entangled in slavery then you are worse off than if you were not free in Christ to begin with!

It seems that those who profess rules and requirements under the Law are enslaved once again to the law and are worse off than those who have not found freedom in Christ!

Romans 7:6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

If we died with Christ and enter into the freedom of Christ... how is it we enslave ourselves the the law and requirements of the written code again?

I am a freeman... a person who is alive in Christ and all things are lawful but not all things are beneficial.

1 Corinthians 10:23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify.

So becoming a slave to religion is forsaking the freedom of being born again to life in Christ!

I can't stand it when people say that if you are in Christ you must do this and that.. YOU must but must I? No for we each have a relationship with Christ that cannot be judged by others.

If I am trying to teach others I must be able to do that which I teach. If your pastor teaches that adultery is wrong, yet is an adulterer.. then he is not edifying God in his teaching, but is he unsaved? NO but he is probably going to be UNMARRIED...
Amen!! . . . still can't rep you yet.
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