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Old 10-16-2009, 03:21 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,642,764 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
R U kidding me....you haven't supplied one piece of biblical evidence to support that angelic war nonsense you've been spouting after many and numerous requests have been made of you.
In response to your accusation in the thread entitled 'A Short Article on the Erroneous Teaching of Universalism,' I supplied an abundance of Biblical verses that show the spiritual warfare that is taking place. Refer to post number 29 for those verses.
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Old 10-16-2009, 03:38 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,386,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
I'm confused about what you disagree with? He thinks you just "choose" Jesus and you automatically receive all of the things he listed and I wholeheartedly disagree with him. Killing our carnal man and walking with Jesus is a long process...and not something that happens in an instant of choosing.
That is why I said "sorta," and I guess I don't disagree if you are agreeing with me...
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Old 10-16-2009, 03:49 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,117,441 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
That is why I said "sorta," and I guess I don't disagree if you are agreeing with me...
I'm certainly not agreeing with him so I must be agreeing with you
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Old 10-16-2009, 03:49 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,386,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Read the actual booklet at the link for more detail on what I posted.

This is not a debate. I have given cold hard fact. Do with it what you will. Those who are believers in Christ and have a desire to grow in their spiritual life will benefit by this information. Those who seek only to criticize, already have their reward.
I did go to the link: (and there is debate mine is in red)
1. Access to God.
At the moment of faith in Christ, we immediately have access to God through prayer (ROM 5:2; EPH 2:18; EPH 3:12). Whose faith was great enough for our access? Christ's faith, certainly not ours! Read 5:1.. says through faith making it synonymous with through Christ. Christ's faith in God set us free, not ours. I see that plainly in those verses listed.

We have access to the Father through prayer when we are in fellowship with Him through the Filling of the Spirit. The Filling of the Holy Spirit occurs when we rebound, naming and citing our sins to Him. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1JO 1:9). God the Father will not hear our prayers outside of if we have not rebounded and filled with the Spirit (EPH 5:18).
Eph 5:18:
Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.

The Lord Jesus Christ made this access to the Father possible with His saving work on the Cross (HEB 4:16; HEB 10:19-20).

Heb 4:16
Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Heb 10:19-20 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body,

The blood of Jesus made the way for us... period. The blood of Jesus opened the way to God, access to God. For all men, not just the High Priest... Jesus being the high priest of the new covenant.

None of this happens at salvation, were you saved when Jesus died on the cross or later when you were alive? Salvation happened when Jesus died on the cross and has nothing to do with our actions.
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Old 10-16-2009, 05:12 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,642,764 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I did go to the link: (and there is debate mine is in red)
1. Access to God.
At the moment of faith in Christ, we immediately have access to God through prayer (ROM 5:2; EPH 2:18; EPH 3:12). Whose faith was great enough for our access? Christ's faith, certainly not ours! Read 5:1.. says through faith making it synonymous with through Christ. Christ's faith in God set us free, not ours. I see that plainly in those verses listed.

We have access to the Father through prayer when we are in fellowship with Him through the Filling of the Spirit. The Filling of the Holy Spirit occurs when we rebound, naming and citing our sins to Him. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1JO 1:9). God the Father will not hear our prayers outside of if we have not rebounded and filled with the Spirit (EPH 5:18).
Eph 5:18:
Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.

The Lord Jesus Christ made this access to the Father possible with His saving work on the Cross (HEB 4:16; HEB 10:19-20).

Heb 4:16
Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Heb 10:19-20 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body,

The blood of Jesus made the way for us... period. The blood of Jesus opened the way to God, access to God. For all men, not just the High Priest... Jesus being the high priest of the new covenant.

None of this happens at salvation, were you saved when Jesus died on the cross or later when you were alive? Salvation happened when Jesus died on the cross and has nothing to do with our actions.
Nothing of what happened on the cross is applied to a person until he makes the decision to believe in Christ. John 3:16: John 3:36. And all the other salvation passages declare that making the decision to believe in Christ is necessary for salvation to be applied to you. If you do not make the decision to believe, then you are not saved. Period.
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Old 10-16-2009, 05:48 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
I'm certainly not agreeing with him so I must be agreeing with you
Logically, Yes that would be true... we are in agreement!
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Old 10-16-2009, 06:05 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,822 posts, read 9,811,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Nothing of what happened on the cross is applied to a person until he makes the decision to believe in Christ. John 3:16: John 3:36. And all the other salvation passages declare that making the decision to believe in Christ is necessary for salvation to be applied to you. If you do not make the decision to believe, then you are not saved. Period.
But objective and subjective justification is in John 3:16

Jesus died for the sins of all the world, not just for the believers. That is objective justification. The payment for sin that God demanded and was found acceptable is a fact whether anyone believes it or not.

However, that universal payment that Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world does not equate into universal salvation. "He that believes not will be damned". This is the subjective part.

As Jesus said:
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

By faith...Romans 4 and Hebrews 11, not by universal reconciliation
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Old 10-16-2009, 06:05 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,386,559 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Nothing of what happened on the cross is applied to a person until he makes the decision to believe in Christ. John 3:16: John 3:36. And all the other salvation passages declare that making the decision to believe in Christ is necessary for salvation to be applied to you. If you do not make the decision to believe, then you are not saved. Period.
What is salvation a topical cream now?

If you MAKE A DECISION you are working toward salvation, salvation is grace. Grace was applied to all after the death of Jesus and the Holy of Holies was opened to all men.

This symbolism is for the Jew not for the Gentile. The Gentile could have cared less about the holy of holies.
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Old 10-16-2009, 06:11 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,386,559 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
But objective and subjective justification is in John 3:16

Jesus died for the sins of all the world, not just for the believers. That is objective justification. The payment for sin that God demanded and was found acceptable is a fact whether anyone believes it or not.

However, that universal payment that Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world does not equate into universal salvation. "He that believes not will be damned". This is the subjective part.

As Jesus said:
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

By faith...Romans 4 and Hebrews 11, not by universal reconciliation
Very well said.. However, I would point out that it is your current state of living that is affected by the belief or rejection not your salvation.

Job 4:8 "According to what I have seen, those who plow iniquity And those who sow trouble harvest it."

You get what you plant. BUT- salvation is God's grace and has nothing to do with what you plant or harvest.

Universal reconciliation and universal salvation are the same thing to me.
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Old 10-16-2009, 06:45 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,642,764 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
But objective and subjective justification is in John 3:16

Jesus died for the sins of all the world, not just for the believers. That is objective justification. The payment for sin that God demanded and was found acceptable is a fact whether anyone believes it or not.

However, that universal payment that Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world does not equate into universal salvation. "He that believes not will be damned". This is the subjective part.

As Jesus said:
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

By faith...Romans 4 and Hebrews 11, not by universal reconciliation
Yes. Jesus died for the sins of the entire world. That is universal reconciliation. That removed sin as an issue in salvation forever. But until a person makes a decision to believe in Christ, and thereby step over the line where the barrier of sin used to be, that reconciliation cannot be applied to that person.

It is only when a person makes the decision to believe, that God the Holy Spirit regenerates that person. That is, at the moment of positive volition expressed toward Christ, The Holy Spirit creates a human spirit to which God the Father imputes His eternal life. ''And you hath HE made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins.'' (Eph. 2:1)

It is also at the point of regeneration that God the Father imputes His very own perfect righteousness to the believer, and so when God looks at the believer, He no longer sees the relative righteousness of man, but rather, He sees His own perfect righteousness in the believer and so He is able to pronounce the believer justified.

The work of Christ on the Cross opened the door to salvation. Man must make a decision to walk through that door.

The work of Christ on the Cross propitiated the Father, and reconciled man to God. There is peace between man and God. The way to God the Father is open through Christ. But a person Has to make the decision to accept the invitation of salvation.

''Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. (make a decision to believe in Christ so that reconciliation may be applied to you for salvation)'' (2 Cor 5:20)
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