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Old 10-17-2009, 05:59 PM
 
Location: Nowhere'sville
2,345 posts, read 3,820,540 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
Upon reading the OP, June's very first thought was "If June was ever to bring herself to actually join a church, you could darn well bet that it would be one that was not only comfortable with, but welcoming of such questions!"

From what June has been told, such questions exist in believers attending churches all the time. --And that more often than not, the very questions posed above are also pondered by fellow Christians who attend church regularly.

-They're just not articulated.

Take gentle silent care.

Unfortunatly June you'd have to be there awhile before you figured out if questioning was welcomed. Everyone feels welcomed at first.
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Old 10-17-2009, 06:03 PM
 
Location: Nowhere'sville
2,345 posts, read 3,820,540 times
Reputation: 701
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundance View Post
Sadly, that has been my experience, too.

My husband was actually called down from the pulpit - for what? For having a close-cropped BEARD. Oh, how awful. Note: we weren't even MEMBERS there. We were visiting! Needless to say, we never went back.

It's so pathetic and sad, but you would probably find more compassion by approaching a random group of strangers, than a church full of "Christians."

Whatever, the Lord is not confined by walls made with human hands.

He will send someone to you...if you want Him to.

What the??? A close cropped beard really? SINNER!!!

Some of these stories remind me of a couple at my old church. The wife had gotten quite large because of illness and not hardly being able to move due to pain. The husband started sleeping around (he had done it in the past too). She wanted a divorce but the pastor said that she just needed to sit down and behave while god worked on the husband. Can you believe that?! She left the church and the husband!
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Old 10-17-2009, 06:10 PM
 
302 posts, read 467,567 times
Reputation: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
So it is only those members that are immature, carnal, or demons that are hypocrites? That seems like an excuse not really a reason. The most pious of ministers have been known to turn someone away just because of the exclusivity of the congregation.

I know of a church down the street from me who's minister sided with the non-adulterous spouse in a divorce and advocated the keeping of their children from the adulterous spouse and banned him from participating in church. The adulterous spouse then locked himself in the car in the church parking lot and blew his brains all over the place before church started...

LOVELY! Perhaps had the minister not been so judgmental about other people's affairs (no pun intended) it would not have ended with the death of one of them.... The pastor could have reached out to the one who was lost rather than telling him that God only loved the other spouse.

But then that is just my opinion!
Donna writes:

According to the apostle Paul, the minister did exactly the right thing:

" But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person." 1 Corinthians 5:11-13

Sin is like a deadly contagious disease. The healthy must be protected from those who are infected. A godly minister has a duty to protect the flock. He must cast out the wicked from among them.

Paul said that those who are within the church must be judged. Those who are outside the church, God will judge.

The man rejected healing. Instead of repenting and being cleansed of his sins, the man chose to blow out his brains. The adulterer is responsible for his choices and must stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Let us soberly consider the following words of the apostle:

"For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God." Ephesians 5:5

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Donna Kupp
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Old 10-17-2009, 06:11 PM
 
Location: Las Flores, Orange County, CA
26,346 posts, read 80,946,704 times
Reputation: 17414
Churches involved in torture, murder of thousands of African children denounced as witches -- latimes.com (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-af-nigeria-child-witches,0,5276725.story - broken link)
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Old 10-17-2009, 06:15 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,492,706 times
Reputation: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by chacho_keva View Post
Now, here’s the biggest kicker, as stated, my brothers in Christ were nowhere to be found when I most needed them; true MIA’s.
Where were they?
Why did they not reach out to one who had been of one mind with them?
now for the other side of the story.

My wife and I have been blessed to get to know a very warm and loving married couple.
They became our very best friends.
Then one day, totaly out of the blue, while my wife and his wife were in the house doing something, my friend just blurts out that he had moved out of their house.

I was not ready to hear that!
I had no clue...

because the gurls joined us, I said nothing and that night on the drive home I told my wife....She also had no clue .

a week later we drive over and again have a great time, except there is a lot of looks going on between the husband and his wife...

My wife and I just dont know what to say, clearly our friends were dealing with something but Im not a trained marriage councilor so i dont want to say the wrong thing.

We did not see them for about a month, then we go to a ball game for our church and run into our friends there.
Except there has been some real trouble now, both the husband and te wife show signs that they had been in a fight.

(I cant be sure that my friends might not read this account, so Im not going to tell you what we saw or what trouble was going on, lets just say it was clearly serious at this point)

about 2 weeks later I saw my friend at his job and he told me that they were getting a divorce.

This hit me like a ton of bricks.
I suggested they both go talk to the church leadership, but he told me that it was well past that stage.

My wife and I called over to their old house once in a while in attempts to get some info but there was a answering machine and so we never again made contact with them.

We drove over to their house (it's a 2 hour drive from our house) but when we got there the house was cleaned out and the yard needed mowing.

What ever became of them?....I dont know.

I have tried FACEBOOK....I have tried the Phone book, and a computer search, but due to theirs being a common name, there are far too many people listed...and at this point Im not even sure they both are in this country anymore.

Now at the time of their divorce there is a chance that they both might feel we were MIA when they needed us.

If so, them Im sorry, but you have to understand, the thought of friends getting divorce is something that rips of friendships,,,even if we dont want it to.

It would be hard for me to try to have the husband over with no wife for my wife to talk to.
It would be hard to try to be friends with one without feel you were disrespecting the other not there...

It is hard thing to ask for people that just know you as a friend to suddenly have the idea that My wife and I wold be "amateur marriage councilors"

Even if we would not be, the fear that we might be placed into that position is very real...

Thus, the truth of the matter is, that the friends of a couple getting a divorce are caught in the middle, and tend to drift away...
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Old 10-17-2009, 06:17 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,586 posts, read 5,352,170 times
Reputation: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna Kupp View Post
Donna writes:

According to the apostle Paul, the minister did exactly the right thing:

" But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person." 1 Corinthians 5:11-13

Sin is like a deadly contagious disease. The healthy must be protected from those who are infected. A godly minister has a duty to protect the flock. He must cast out the wicked from among them.

Paul said that those who are within the church must be judged. Those who are outside the church, God will judge.

The man rejected healing. Instead of repenting and being cleansed of his sins, the man chose to blow out his brains. The adulterer is responsible for his choices and must stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Let us soberly consider the following words of the apostle:

"For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God." Ephesians 5:5

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Donna Kupp
Yes, I see your point and to some degree agree.. But people don't see things that way. If you expose their sin, trust me they are not going to like you. That is the way the world is. They don't want their sin brought up expecially in their face. What you said is correct, and the pastor has the right to rebuked the people that God places under him.

But people just don't like it, and want take to it.

Maybe I am different, but I want to be in a church and I am, where I will get rebuked if I do something wrong. That is the responsibility of the pastor, he or she is not your friend, but the do the work of God.

If I am sinning and the pastor over looks it, I don't need to be there. But if I sin and my pastor confronts me, well, he is only doin his job.

I love my church and my pastor, because I know that He walks with intergrity and will only speak what God tells him to say. So, if God tells Him to rebuke me, then I will take it and learn and grow. People who can't take things like that are immature and carnal.
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Old 10-17-2009, 06:37 PM
 
7,788 posts, read 10,463,452 times
Reputation: 3392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna Kupp View Post

Donna writes:

According to the apostle Paul...the minister did exactly the right thing.

The man rejected healing. Instead of repenting and being cleansed of his sins, the man chose to blow out his brains. The adulterer is responsible for his choices and must stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
As too, June would imagine, others, as well! There is clearly a difference between one's ending one's life in isolation, at home, as opposed to a self inflicted gun shot wound in the parking lot of one's church.

Now that is what June calls a "very clear message." (-Albeit, a passive aggressive one, at that.)

Dear god, Donna, a man took his own life.

Surely you aren't saying that was either justified, or okay?


Take gentle care?
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Old 10-17-2009, 06:48 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,405,317 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna Kupp View Post
Donna writes:

According to the apostle Paul, the minister did exactly the right thing:

" But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person." 1 Corinthians 5:11-13

Sin is like a deadly contagious disease. The healthy must be protected from those who are infected. A godly minister has a duty to protect the flock. He must cast out the wicked from among them.

Paul said that those who are within the church must be judged. Those who are outside the church, God will judge.

The man rejected healing. Instead of repenting and being cleansed of his sins, the man chose to blow out his brains. The adulterer is responsible for his choices and must stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Let us soberly consider the following words of the apostle:

"For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God." Ephesians 5:5

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Donna Kupp
All of which contradicts that Jesus did not come to condemn but to save...John 3:17

And God gave Jesus the power of judgment (John 5:22) so God doesn't judge, Jesus does...yet there is a purpose to the judgment of Christ:

John 9:39 And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind."

So the purpose of Jesus' judgment was not to condemn but to show error and save the person.

Did that pastor save the alleged adulterer? Was the adulterer any more lost than you were before you believed?

What could the pastor have done IN LOVE to produce an altogether different outcome?

My mother also says that sin is contagious.. I contracted the flu from my friend the other day... I had no choice... is sin a choice or is it contagious?

Sin is a choice, and is not contagious! Jesus came to save the lost, not put them out to pasture and shoot them!

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Are you any of these things or have been? ALL have sinned. I am no different from the adulterer even though I have never committed adultery!

If Jesus came to save the LOST and the SINNER... what are pastors to do with them? Cast them out cuz they are contagious? PLEASE!

That is the very "church folks attitude" that this thread addresses!

What is more important? The sinner or the sin?

The teacher teaching that ALL are sinful and need God turns into the idea that some are TOO sinful and can't be saved by God!

Well there goes the whole "love your neighbor as yourself" commandment! If a sinner can't go to church than I guess churches are not out to save sinners are they?
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Old 10-17-2009, 07:00 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,405,317 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
As too, June would imagine, others, as well! There is clearly a difference between one's ending one's life in isolation, at home, as opposed to a self inflicted gun shot wound in the parking lot of one's church.

Now that is what June calls a "very clear message." (-Albeit, a passive aggressive one, at that.)

Dear god, Donna, a man took his own life.

Surely you aren't saying that was either justified, or okay?


Take gentle care?
Yes, a man took his own life! IN the church parking lot where he knew the pastor would be who stood behind his wife in keeping his children from him! This was after repeatedly going to counseling with that pastor!

This was told to me by a member of the church who was scared to death because he was going through a divorce and it was his wife that was unfaithful. He pleaded with the pastor to let her go to second service while he went to first service! There was no excuse for this pastors behavior!

Anyway, this strikes a cord with me because if Jesus came to save all sinners but the church pushes away the lost to tend to the saved they are in direct contradiction to the very bible the profess to follow!

WWJD - simple little anacronym that has made someone lots of money, but yet in that situation what would Jesus have done? Surely I would think that God loves everyone ESPECIALLY those in need of help!

It breaks my heart that the same sentiment by that poster is what is rampant in churches today! Don't we value people anymore? It used to be that the church was the refuge for sinners to become christians... now it is just the place christians segregate themselves from contagious sinners!

Very sad indeed!
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Old 10-17-2009, 07:04 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,295 posts, read 20,040,776 times
Reputation: 2110
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
All of which contradicts that Jesus did not come to condemn but to save...John 3:17

And God gave Jesus the power of judgment (John 5:22) so God doesn't judge, Jesus does...yet there is a purpose to the judgment of Christ:

John 9:39 And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind."

So the purpose of Jesus' judgment was not to condemn but to show error and save the person.

Did that pastor save the alleged adulterer? Was the adulterer any more lost than you were before you believed?

What could the pastor have done IN LOVE to produce an altogether different outcome?

My mother also says that sin is contagious.. I contracted the flu from my friend the other day... I had no choice... is sin a choice or is it contagious?

Sin is a choice, and is not contagious! Jesus came to save the lost, not put them out to pasture and shoot them!

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Are you any of these things or have been? ALL have sinned. I am no different from the adulterer even though I have never committed adultery!

If Jesus came to save the LOST and the SINNER... what are pastors to do with them? Cast them out cuz they are contagious? PLEASE!

That is the very "church folks attitude" that this thread addresses!

What is more important? The sinner or the sin?

The teacher teaching that ALL are sinful and need God turns into the idea that some are TOO sinful and can't be saved by God!

Well there goes the whole "love your neighbor as yourself" commandment! If a sinner can't go to church than I guess churches are not out to save sinners are they?
Go Kat Go
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