U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-19-2009, 07:41 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,959,223 times
Reputation: 221

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightinsky View Post
Those people you know who were baptized by sprinkling of water must of done it in a religion that is not teaching true biblical baptism known as " The Believer's Baptism" just like John the baptist did which is by submersion not sprinkling.

The thief on the cross next to Jesus asked Jesus for forgiveness and Jesus replied saying today you will be with me in paradise. Jesus didn't say get off the cross and go down there and be baptized by submerssion or sprinkling it was his heart that he was looking at. Baptism is done out of biblical obedience when you publicly identify with Christ that you received His free gift of grace for eternal life and are letting others know you accept Him. You don't go to hell because you didn't get baptized but for not receiving Jesus in your heart because of non belief in His sacrifice on the cross and His resurrection which defeated all sin past, present, and future.
John the Baptist baptized by immersion, as evidenced by the following:

After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized." John 3: 22-23

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/3/22-23#22

(Why would he need to have a lot of water if all he did was sprinkle?)


Jesus said to the thief on the cross:

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." Luke 23: 43

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/luke/23/43#43


And yet three days later, after his resurrection, he admonished Mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to the place where God the Father dwells:

"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." John 20: 17

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/20/17#17

(Jesus also affirms in that verse that we are his brothers and sisters, spirit children of the same Heavenly Parent.)


It is my understanding that during those three days Jesus (in the spirit) went not to heaven but to the temporary world of postmortal spirits awaiting their resurrection and there either preached to those who had died previously, or bridged the gap between the Paradise and the Spirit Prison portions of the spirit world so that missionaries could from that time on cross over and teach the Gospel to those in prison.


"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." 1 Peter 3: 18-20

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_pet/3/18-20#18


The essential earthly ordinance of baptism would be extended to all later via proxy baptisms in earthly temples where mortals would stand in for those who had died without baptism:

"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" 1 Corinthians 15: 29

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_cor/15/29#29
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-19-2009, 08:12 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,849,885 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
John the Baptist baptized by immersion, as evidenced by the following:

After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized." John 3: 22-23

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/3/22-23#22

(Why would he need to have a lot of water if all he did was sprinkle?)
Not that this matters, but you never stood in a flowing river that was deep enough to dunk a person, have you? A person would not have the physicall stamina to stand in a river current to baptize the crowds that John did.

If you know anything of the Jordan, it mostly has steep banks and has a strong current. The places that John was known to be baptizing were large shallow areas that could accommodate large crowds.

At one time, the "applying of water" was used for the ceremonial washing...like washing pots, dishes. The O.T. understanding was that of immursion, but by N.T. times that term also came to be understood also as sprinkling....as the writer of Hebrews wrote how we are saved and how the God saved the Israelites out of Egypt:

Hebrews 11:28

By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

By faith.......and the sprinking of blood, not by immursion of blood.

I hope you noticed, Heavenly Father didn't say "not after all you can do and by immursion."

By faith....(Hebrews 11 and Romans 4) it has always been that.

Last edited by twin.spin; 10-19-2009 at 08:31 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-19-2009, 08:40 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,959,223 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Not that this matters, but you never stood in a flowing river that was deep enough to dunk a person, have you? A person would not have the physicall stamina to stand in a river current to baptize the crowds that John did.

If you know anything of the Jordan, it mostly has steep banks and has a strong current. The places that John was known be baptizing were large shallow areas that could accommodate large crowds....
Actually I have stood in the Jordan. But no, I didn't walk it from its head in Galilee all the way to the Dead Sea. (Though almost no water at all reaches the Dead today, it's used up before then and the Dead is shrinking. I don't know how it was 2,000 years ago.)

But fair enough about immersion, you have only the Bible to rely on and reach your conclusions from. Latter-day Saints know that John the Baptist appeared as a resurrected being when the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times was ushered in not too long ago and not only restored the Aaronic/Levitical Priesthood but also provided instructions on how to baptize. Yes, it was by immersion. (There are certain words to use word for word when baptizing somebody by proper authority.)

But I don't expect you to believe that...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-19-2009, 08:52 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,849,885 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
Actually I have stood in the Jordan. But no, I didn't walk it from its head in Galilee all the way to the Dead Sea. (Though almost no water at all reaches the Dead today, it's used up before then and the Dead is shrinking. I don't know how it was 2,000 years ago.)

But fair enough about immersion, you have only the Bible to rely on and reach your conclusions from. Latter-day Saints know that John the Baptist appeared as a resurrected being when the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times was ushered in not too long ago and not only restored the Aaronic/Levitical Priesthood but also provided instructions on how to baptize. Yes, it was by immersion. (There are certain words to use word for word when baptizing somebody by proper authority.)

But I don't expect you to believe that...
"John the Baptist appeared as a resurrected being when the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times was ushered in not too long ago

That's new to me....when?"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-19-2009, 09:50 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,959,223 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
"John the Baptist appeared as a resurrected being when the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times was ushered in not too long ago

That's new to me....when?"
It is recorded in LDS canon, in the book of Doctrine and Covenants:


SECTION 13

Ordination of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery to the Aaronic Priesthood along the bank of the Susquehanna River, near Harmony, Pennsylvania, May 15, 1829. HC 1: 3942. The ordination was done by the hands of an angel, who announced himself as John, the same that is called John the Baptist in the New Testament. The angel explained that he was acting under the direction of Peter, James, and John, the ancient apostles, who held the keys of the higher priesthood, which was called the Priesthood of Melchizedek. The promise was given to Joseph and Oliver that in due time the Priesthood of Melchizedek would be conferred upon them. See also Section 27: 7, 8, 12.

Keys and powers of Aaronic Priesthood are set forth.

"Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness."

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/13



Also, with some additional details, in the History of the Church:

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/68-73#68
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-20-2009, 10:23 AM
 
Location: Seward, Alaska
2,739 posts, read 7,662,450 times
Reputation: 1963
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
It is recorded in LDS canon, in the book of Doctrine and Covenants:


SECTION 13

Ordination of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery to the Aaronic Priesthood along the bank of the Susquehanna River, near Harmony, Pennsylvania, May 15, 1829. HC 1: 39–42. The ordination was done by the hands of an angel, who announced himself as John, the same that is called John the Baptist in the New Testament. The angel explained that he was acting under the direction of Peter, James, and John, the ancient apostles, who held the keys of the higher priesthood, which was called the Priesthood of Melchizedek. The promise was given to Joseph and Oliver that in due time the Priesthood of Melchizedek would be conferred upon them. See also Section 27: 7, 8, 12.

So, according to this "scripture", John is no longer a man, but was presto-changoed into an angel? So, we can all look forward to possibly becoming an angel someday? What do I have to do to become an angel, and can I have blue eyes and blonde hair next time? (And be at least 6' tall?)

PS: I don't believe people ever turn into angels...

Bud
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-20-2009, 10:51 AM
 
159 posts, read 195,156 times
Reputation: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
It is recorded in LDS canon, in the book of Doctrine and Covenants:


SECTION 13

Ordination of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery to the Aaronic Priesthood along the bank of the Susquehanna River, near Harmony, Pennsylvania, May 15, 1829. HC 1: 3942. The ordination was done by the hands of an angel, who announced himself as John, the same that is called John the Baptist in the New Testament. The angel explained that he was acting under the direction of Peter, James, and John, the ancient apostles, who held the keys of the higher priesthood, which was called the Priesthood of Melchizedek. The promise was given to Joseph and Oliver that in due time the Priesthood of Melchizedek would be conferred upon them. See also Section 27: 7, 8, 12.

Keys and powers of Aaronic Priesthood are set forth.

"Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness."

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/13



Also, with some additional details, in the History of the Church:

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/68-73#68
The only inspired book is the bible. It is absolute nonsense to believe that any other book is inspired by the Holy Spirit. The "Doctrine and Covenants" is as inspired as "Mary had a little lamb".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-20-2009, 10:53 AM
 
159 posts, read 195,156 times
Reputation: 28
Not to mention Joseph Smith did not die on that cross for you, Jesus did. Do not be like those in Corinth who aligned themselves under men (1 Cor. 1:10-13).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-20-2009, 10:58 AM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,959,223 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by BudinAk View Post
So, according to this "scripture", John is no longer a man, but was presto-changoed into an angel? So, we can all look forward to possibly becoming an angel someday? What do I have to do to become an angel, and can I have blue eyes and blonde hair next time? (And be at least 6' tall?)

PS: I don't believe people ever turn into angels... Bud
It's possible that God created a separate stream of creatures called "angels" but my guess is that those we call "angels" are His spirit children made in His own image and likeness, our spirit brothers and sisters.

One third of Father's spirit children rebelled in the preexistence, followed Lucifer, and were cast out of heaven. They will never get physical bodies.

Other than those "dark angels," as I understand the matter, there exist:

1. premortal spirits awaiting their turn on earth, some could be assigned as "guardian angels"
2. mortals who carry messages from God or otherwise do good to others and could in that capacity be called "angels"
3. the spirits of those who have lived their mortal lives and died awaiting their resurrection
4. translated beings who have not yet died but live very long lives because of assigned tasks on this planet they have yet to perform or are now performing
5. resurrected beings who lived mortal lives then died and were resurrected

Any of the above could account for the presence and operations of beings we often call "angels".

John the Baptist lived his mortal life, was killed, and has been resurrected.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-20-2009, 11:06 AM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,959,223 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaltonG View Post
The only inspired book is the bible. It is absolute nonsense to believe that any other book is inspired by the Holy Spirit. The "Doctrine and Covenants" is as inspired as "Mary had a little lamb".
The bible is a collection of many books. The books of the bible were chosen by groups of probably well-meaning but fallible scholars from among many others that could have been chosen.

If God is unchanging, why would He have abandoned His children on earth, as some scholars say He did, and no longer speak to them or to prophets?

The fact that there are about 38,000 Christian denominations, most of which probably were organized because someone interpreted or emphasized one or more verses of the bible differently, demonstrates the need to have authorized prophets and apostles on the earth today as it was anciently, and the need for individual revelation.

You can read for yourself other works of scripture, and find out from God for yourself if they are just as true and valuable for God's children in our time as were the more ancient books.

http://scriptures.lds.org/
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top