U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-18-2009, 12:04 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,487,341 times
Reputation: 241

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Actually Alan,...The Bible simply says in Matt 27:52 ''and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. (resuscitated).'' The two thousand years is this posters invention to try to ridicule the idea.
very true.

I got no problem with some people getting another shot at life as being all part of the moment Jesus died on the cross...

Seems like a nice thing for Jesus to do...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-18-2009, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,386,559 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Actually Alan, I never said anything about people who were dead for two thousand years being resuscitated. This poster came to that conclusion all by herself. The Bible simply says in Matt 27:52 ''and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. (resuscitated).'' The two thousand years is this posters invention to try to ridicule the idea.
No you stated dead OT saints were raised...

The last OT saint died around 500 years before Christ's death, I think all scientists (morticians and forensic pathologists especially) would call that reanimation, not resuscitation.

So how is it that you modify the meaning of the word resuscitation?

That was my point.. and we all know that some OT saints had been buried FAR longer than 500 years by the time of Christ's death.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-18-2009, 12:17 PM
 
5,733 posts, read 4,581,672 times
Reputation: 4149
Was talking about this subject somewhere else and posted the following.
These are just things I'm thinking about... I'm not debating. Just sharing some things that have popped in my head.

"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his [Jesus'] resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

Jesus died a real death. He overcame death and was resurrected. When he was ressurrected, He overcame death for all. The graves were opened and many bodies of the saint which slept arose. I do not think this was literaly physical bodies but spiritual bodies. "appeared unto many".... I see thas as being in visions/dreams. This type of thing, I believe, happens still today, sometimes, when a loved one dies, the loved one will appear in a dream to a family member and they are ok, they are healed, they are not dead but alive! (in in a different realm, in a different dimension, "back home" in other words.)

Now, since Jesus' ressurrection, since death has been overcome...there is is now no more "sleep", a person dies and now does not lay in the earth "asleep" but now passes into life. REAL life. They go back home to the Father. Jesus' ressurrection was the dividing point. The event that took place in time which symbolized not only spiritual life (of those alive on earth) overcoming spiritual death, but actual literal death being overcome.
Lazarus raised. Was Jesus showing them what was to come, in more ways than one? Not only a foreshadowing of Christ's death and resurrection... but a promise, that death will be overcome?? Not just spiritual death, mind you... but physical death. Mary said she believed that Lazarus would be raised on the last day. But Jesus brought him back and was basically saying... NO, look... have faith. Lazarus is NOT dead. He was showing them not only compassion, not only the power of the Father, but a foreshadowing also of death being overcome. Lazarus raised pointed to Jesus... a foretaste of what Jesus was to also accomplish. I say this, because why else would there be the specific point of Mary saying "I know he will be raised on the last day..". I think Lazarus raised was a foreshadowing of Jesus' death and resurrection, of course, but I also think/wonder if it was also showing something more.

Death is the last enemy. One reason being, for the person who died, it is the last enemy because once they've died, death is no longer seen as the enemy. Death is now no more. (for that person.) They've essentially stepped from death to life when they died.

Just some thoughts. I am not debating here... these are just some things that are bouncing around in my mind. I'm not here to defend soul sleep or no soul sleep, just sharing some ideas is all. I, personally do NOT believe in "soul sleep". But I will leave the door open on that for God to come in and give me more revelation. Knowledge is step by step.... I accept that. Most of the time, knowledge does not come all at once. God walks you slowly. Which is fine by me. Either God will solidify your beliefs, or He will take you past them if you are not "there" yet. I'm not sure if I'm "there yet" or if I've got a few steps to go as far as all of this talk about soul sleep. But God is faithful. He'll lead the way. That I'm sure of.
(and hey, we'll all eventually find out the truth once and for all anyway.)

peace..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-18-2009, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,386,559 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
first, Does the Bible actually say that people that had been dead for 2000 years came back to life?

and...

secondly, Jesus says clearly later that Lazarus was dead....dead is dead...

Jesus sat on his butt for 4 days to make sure that no one would be able to question later if perhaps Lazarus was not all that dead...

Jesus wants you to believe that Lazarus was stone cold dead and rotting...
So Jesus first says that Lazarus is asleep to account for his delay, then later he says Lazarus is dead in order to make his deed unquestionable?

If Lazarus was stone cold dead and rotting it is, BY DEFINITION, a resurrection not a resuscitation.

You cannot change the meaning of words to suit your interpretation, otherwise the bible would also be a jumble of words I can define myself....

I see your dilemma... It is hard to say that Lazarus was resurrected because Jesus is supposed to be the first and yet if he was truly dead and rotting then he cannot have been resuscitated. But to say that the "saints" are resuscitated is redefining the word just the same. You can't have it both ways.

Mary Shelley described the monster of Frankestein as reanimated... Dead and yet not resurrected just parts reanimated.

This is closer to that mentioned about the saints emerging from their graves wouldn't you say? There is no chance they were still alive. They were decidedly factually dead... therefore BY DEFINITION could not have been resuscitated. The only other choices are zombie-like reanimation or resurrection... which is it?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-18-2009, 12:26 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,642,764 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
No you stated dead OT saints were raised...

The last OT saint died around 500 years before Christ's death, I think all scientists (morticians and forensic pathologists especially) would call that reanimation, not resuscitation.

So how is it that you modify the meaning of the word resuscitation?

That was my point.. and we all know that some OT saints had been buried FAR longer than 500 years by the time of Christ's death.
The Old Testament Saints are the believers who lived during the Age of Israel. Christ lived and was crucified during the Age of Israel. The Church Age didn't begin until the day of Pentecost which occured 50 days after Christ was resurrected. The Gospels and the begiinning of Acts record events that took place during the Age of Israel.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-18-2009, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,386,559 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Here is my views on that...

I dont get mixed up into the whole - "Is man Body,soul, and spirit?" or "Is man just Body an soul/spirit?

(The difference being one is spoken with the word "and' to mean 3 things, and the other makes us of the slash "/" to mean 2 things.)

But what i know is , that when you bury someone in the ground, their inner spirit is not in the casket.

That at the moment of death we step right into being in front of the Lord...There is not the slightest break, or moment of unconsciousness.
I don't disagree with that view at all. I disagree with using words like resurrection and resuscitation outside of the definition of such words. That is wrong well that is if I didn't just change the meaning of wrong to fit my view of scripture.....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-18-2009, 12:27 PM
 
Location: UPSTATE SC
1,405 posts, read 2,109,024 times
Reputation: 636
Paul wrote saying, “God will bring with Him those who died with Jesus”.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.don’t worry, those that have died with the Lord will come with Him. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Jesus used the word “sleep” as another way to say “dead”. These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.” 12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

Luke 8:52-53 Now all wept and mourned for her; but He said, “Do not weep; she is not dead, but sleeping.” 53 And they ridiculed Him, knowing that she was dead.

Paul the apostle shares something that to him is hard to understand in totality

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep (die), but we shall all be changed — 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. We will all be changed into our new bodies at the same time. Yes us, even though we are still alive, and them, those that have died with Christ. All of us will be changed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-18-2009, 12:31 PM
 
5,733 posts, read 4,581,672 times
Reputation: 4149
Well... Lazarus was raised, but not with a glorified body. At some point, Lazarus physically died again.

Jesus, however, was resurrected in a glorified body.

So there is a difference in how Lazarus was "raised" and how Jesus was "raised".

They were both resurrected.
Lazarus into his physical body.
Jesus into a glorified body.

hmmm. just thinking out loud here.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-18-2009, 12:57 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,487,341 times
Reputation: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
No you stated dead OT saints were raised...

.
it was still the Old test as far as I know as this all happened at the very moment Jesus died and the vail was ripped..
...the resurrection had not happened yet so this was likely what we might call the last at of mercy by God under the Old Covenant....

and the term "saints" was likely talking about believers....any believers as we are not told their names...common people i would judge as we dont hear of any names we know.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-18-2009, 01:05 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,487,341 times
Reputation: 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
So Jesus first says that Lazarus is asleep to account for his delay, then later he says Lazarus is dead in order to make his deed unquestionable?

If Lazarus was stone cold dead and rotting it is, BY DEFINITION, a resurrection not a resuscitation.
lazarus was first said to be sleeping.
This caused the 12 guys with jesus to think that Lazarus was going to get better on his own, but clearly Jesus used the term "sleeping" as some type of symbol.

This is likely because Jesus knew that Lazarus would rise in a few days from the dead.

so we come away with the idea that Jesus knew full well that Lazarus was stone cold dead...
but He just used the term "sleeping" to introduce the idea that he would "wake" him from the dead....


When Lazarus came back to life, we dont see it as a resurrection into an everlasting body of flesh and bone, ,,there are two reasons for this.
#1 - not a hint about that in the text
#2 - Jesus is said to be "Firstborn from the dead"

So we are left only with the idea that Jesus just resuscitated Lazarus and that he just came back to life in the normal manner that Jesus had raised others,
like that little girl,
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top