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Old 10-18-2009, 02:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I don't disagree with that view at all. I disagree with using words like resurrection and resuscitation outside of the definition of such words. .

if you are dead....and you come back to life in a normal human body of "Flesh and blood" ...then you are said to have been resuscitated.


If you are dead and you come back to life in an everlasting body of "Flesh and Bone" and that body can never die again...you have been resurrected.

Christians believe in the "Resurrection of the Body"
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Old 10-18-2009, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
Was talking about this subject somewhere else and posted the following.
These are just things I'm thinking about... I'm not debating. Just sharing some things that have popped in my head.

"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his [Jesus'] resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

Jesus died a real death. He overcame death and was resurrected. When he was ressurrected, He overcame death for all. The graves were opened and many bodies of the saint which slept arose. I do not think this was literaly physical bodies but spiritual bodies. "appeared unto many".... I see thas as being in visions/dreams. This type of thing, I believe, happens still today, sometimes, when a loved one dies, the loved one will appear in a dream to a family member and they are ok, they are healed, they are not dead but alive! (in in a different realm, in a different dimension, "back home" in other words.)
Now that makes perfect sense. It is when you get caught up in believing that the body doesn't go back to dust but is reanimated at the time of resurrection that it gets all messed up!

Quote:
Now, since Jesus' ressurrection, since death has been overcome...there is is now no more "sleep", a person dies and now does not lay in the earth "asleep" but now passes into life. REAL life. They go back home to the Father. Jesus' ressurrection was the dividing point. The event that took place in time which symbolized not only spiritual life (of those alive on earth) overcoming spiritual death, but actual literal death being overcome.
Lazarus raised. Was Jesus showing them what was to come, in more ways than one? Not only a foreshadowing of Christ's death and resurrection... but a promise, that death will be overcome?? Not just spiritual death, mind you... but physical death. Mary said she believed that Lazarus would be raised on the last day. But Jesus brought him back and was basically saying... NO, look... have faith. Lazarus is NOT dead. He was showing them not only compassion, not only the power of the Father, but a foreshadowing also of death being overcome. Lazarus raised pointed to Jesus... a foretaste of what Jesus was to also accomplish. I say this, because why else would there be the specific point of Mary saying "I know he will be raised on the last day..". I think Lazarus raised was a foreshadowing of Jesus' death and resurrection, of course, but I also think/wonder if it was also showing something more.
I believe that since John is the only one who records this and it closely resembles the Lazarus parable in Luke that it is likely a parable as well or similar to it in that it was meant to teach not to prove history.

Quote:
Death is the last enemy. One reason being, for the person who died, it is the last enemy because once they've died, death is no longer seen as the enemy. Death is now no more. (for that person.) They've essentially stepped from death to life when they died.
Yes! I don't think Jesus meant that people would no longer have to die at some point in the future.

Quote:
Just some thoughts. I am not debating here... these are just some things that are bouncing around in my mind. I'm not here to defend soul sleep or no soul sleep, just sharing some ideas is all. I, personally do NOT believe in "soul sleep". But I will leave the door open on that for God to come in and give me more revelation. Knowledge is step by step.... I accept that. Most of the time, knowledge does not come all at once. God walks you slowly. Which is fine by me. Either God will solidify your beliefs, or He will take you past them if you are not "there" yet. I'm not sure if I'm "there yet" or if I've got a few steps to go as far as all of this talk about soul sleep. But God is faithful. He'll lead the way. That I'm sure of.
(and hey, we'll all eventually find out the truth once and for all anyway.)

peace..
True.. and also if we do sleep we will likely never know anyway as the dead are not conscious...
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Old 10-18-2009, 02:25 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The Old Testament Saints are the believers who lived during the Age of Israel. Christ lived and was crucified during the Age of Israel. The Church Age didn't begin until the day of Pentecost which occured 50 days after Christ was resurrected. The Gospels and the begiinning of Acts record events that took place during the Age of Israel.
So what saint died that would be resurrected with or at the time of Christ's death? John the Baptist? Some say Luke and secular historians disagree as to the time of Johns Death but regardless... who else do you suppose then is in the group of saints that were raised at the time of Christ's death?
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Old 10-18-2009, 02:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
So what saint died that would be resurrected with or at the time of Christ's death??
none were "resurrected"

That would means that rose from the grave in everlasting bodies of flesh and bone.

However when Jesus raised others from the dead during his mission they just came back to life in normal human flesh and blood....

it's still a miracle, but it is not the resurrection.
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Old 10-18-2009, 02:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
. who else do you suppose then is in the group of saints that were raised at the time of Christ's death?
We are not told in the text.

From the fact that there are no well-known names listed, we can guess that the people raised at the moment Christ died were not very important ...just normal people.
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Old 10-18-2009, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
if you are dead....and you come back to life in a normal human body of "Flesh and blood" ...then you are said to have been resuscitated.


If you are dead and you come back to life in an everlasting body of "Flesh and Bone" and that body can never die again...you have been resurrected.

Christians believe in the "Resurrection of the Body"
If what you say is true then Resurrection and Resuscitation mean the opposite of the definitions in the dictionary.

Spiritualism of something is better exegesis than to change the meaning of words.

A very good discussion of the subject can be found at RESURRECTION OR RESUSCITATION? (http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/scriptur/res.htm - broken link)

An excerpt:
"I was taken off from the theme I was expounding two paragraphs above by the Reverend with the challenge,"But how can you be so sure..?" To continue from where I had deviated above - 'HE IS NOT' what they were thinking, that he was not a SPIRIT, not a GHOST, not a SPOOK. To assure them further after having offered his hands and feet for inspection and verification that his was a material, physical body, and that all their bewilderment and disbelief was unjustified, he asked his disciples:"Have you here any meat?" (Meaning something to eat). 'And they gave him a piece of broiled fish and of a honeycomb, and he took it, and did eat before them.' (Luke 24:41-43)
A DRAMA ?
What was Jesus trying to prove by all his demonstrations of wanting his hands and feet to be handled and chewing and masticating broiled fish and honeycomb? Was all this a pretence, make-belief, an act or drama? "NO!" Said Schleliermacher in 1819, a hundred years before I was born. Albert - Schweizer records him saying, "IF CHRIST HAD ONLY EATEN TO SHOW THAT HE COULD EAT, WHILE HE REALLY HAD NO NEED OF NOURISHMENT, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A PRETENCE _ SOMETHING DOCETIC."("In Quest of the Historial Jesus," page 64). I had not know of Schleliermacher and other Christian scholars who over a hundred years ago doubted the death of Jesus on the cross as recorded by Albert Schweizer, when I was discussing this subject with the head of the Bible Society. "

Perhaps we should start another thread about the secular definition of those two words and the christian version... along with the implications or their use in regards to Jesus.
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Old 10-18-2009, 02:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
If what you say is true then Resurrection and Resuscitation mean the opposite of the definitions in the dictionary.

.
a moot point...Im right.

Christians believe in the resurrection of the Body.
This means that even is my body got blowed up and is even less than dust,,,or has even become food for worms and plants and nature, when I am called out of the grave I will receive a new body...a body just like the One Jesus has right now!

it has a new nature,,,it can never die.

On the other hand.
The little girl that Jesus called back to life , just came back in her normal body of flesh and blood.
She would still age, she would still get sick, she would still die again...
So the people that were raised to life during the mission of Christ were not Resurrected!....

Oh and the argument that Jesus should not have eaten after the resurrection is moot too.

Jesus ate because he wanted to.
Remember, He walked on the road when clearly he did not have to as we see when he broke bread later and then "beamed" out..

He didnt have to eat,,,he didnt have to walk,,,he just wanted too!
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Old 10-18-2009, 02:56 PM
 
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But does the term "resurrected" HAVE to mean resurrected INTO a glorified body? I don't think it does, does it?

The difference with Jesus resurrection was that He was not JUST resurrected but He was resurrected into a glorifed body.

Lazarus was resurrected.
So was Jesus.

But there is a difference.
One was resurrected back from the dead into a physical flesh and blood body. (Lazarus)
One was resurrected back from the dead into a glorified imperishable body. (Jesus.)



???

I think resuscitation is not the right term for someone who had been dead for more than a couple of days. "resuscitation" is someone who isn't all the way dead yet... there's still some sort of life, however miniscule it is to snatch onto. With a 3 or 4 day old dead body... whatever life there was is now GONE.

Again, just thinking out loud.
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Old 10-18-2009, 03:00 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
We are not told in the text.

From the fact that there are no well-known names listed, we can guess that the people raised at the moment Christ died were not very important ...just normal people.
So they were unimportant saints?

Matt. 27 :
50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
54When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Sone of God!”



Many holy people who had died were raised to life?


Here is an article that greatly expounds on what I have said about these verses in previous posts on this subject. Truth Or Tradition - What about Matthew 27:52 and 53? Bible Study on the tombs broke open...


"The Old Testament and Gospels have records of people being raised from the dead, but all those people were raised in their normal bodies and died again. They were not raised to everlasting life because Christ had not yet been raised from the dead. The “many holy people” Matthew refers to as being raised were raised when Jesus died, and not after his resurrection, so they could not have been raised to everlasting life. Some Bible teachers try to avoid that conclusion by saying that the phrase, “after his resurrection,” in verse 53 refers to the entire event, and that the dead were not raised until after Jesus’ resurrection. However, that is not how the Greek text reads. The raising from the dead is clearly set at the time of the death of Christ. Thus if they were raised, they could not have been raised with everlasting bodies."


So your dilemma is that you must change the value of words and their definition to make all this work together...




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Old 10-18-2009, 03:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
But does the term "resurrected" HAVE to mean resurrected INTO a glorified body? I don't think it does, does it?

.
You must define your terms, then you can use them anyway you want I dont care.

This is the way I define the term...
Resurrection = means to come back in everlasting body of flesh and bone...we are talking about only Jesus!
Only Jesus has been truly resurrection as he says himself. "I am the resurrection!"

So if your way to understand the term "Resurrection" does not mean Jesus?...then you are not in agreement with what Jesus said the term means to Him...


So My advice?
Go change your way to define it, so that you automatically think of only Jesus when you see the term "Resurrection" and then you will agree with Jesus..

He, and He alone is the resurrection.
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