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Old 10-17-2009, 08:39 PM
 
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There are some who erroniously believe in soul sleep. This is due to a misunderstanding of, and the ignoring of certain passages in the Bible.

Let's look first at a verse which shows the soul in Heaven. In itself, it puts the lie to the concept of soul sleep.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand (these are the souls of both the Old Testament saints and the souls of the martyred Tribulational believers); and they came to life (the physical resurrection of their bodies) and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Here's what Paul has to say about it. Philippians 1:23 ''But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24) yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

Now, Paul was not saying that it is very much better to depart and to be dead in a grave; he said it is very much better to depart and be with Christ.


Here is what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 5:8-9 we are of good courage, I say,and prefer to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 9) Therefore also we have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

Paul did not say, ''I prefer to be absent from the body and dead in a grave;'' He said ''and to be at home with the Lord.''


Now lets look at the soul in Sheol (Hebrew); known as Hades (Greek)

The following paragraph is from the footnotes of the New Scofield Reference Edition Bible; on page 954, in the chapter of Habakkuk, regarding Habakkuk 2:5.

4(2:5)Sheol is, in the Old Testament, the place where the dead go. (1) Often, therefore, it is spoken of as the equivalent of the grave, where all human activities cease; the terminus toward which all of human life moves (e.g. Gen. 42:38; Job 14:13; Ps.88:3). (2) To the man ''under the sun,'' the natural man, who of necessity judges from appearances, sheol seems no more than the grave--the end and total cessation, not only of the activities of life, but also of life itself (Eccl.9:5;10). But (3) Scipture reveals sheol as a place of sorrow (2 Sam.22:6; Ps.18:5;116:3), into which the wicked are turned (Ps.9:17), and where they are fully conscious (Isa.14:9-17;Ezek.32:21). Compare Jon.2:2; what the belly of the great fish was to Jonah, sheol is to those who are therein.

2 Samuel 22:6 The sorrows of sheol compassed me about; the snares of death came upon me.

Psalms 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of sheol got hold upon me; I found trouble and sorrow.

Ezekiel 32:21 The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the mouth of sheol with those who help him; they are gone down, they lieuncircumcised, slain by the sword.

Compare these verses about Sheol with what luke 16:19-31 says about Hades. They are the same place.


In Ecclesiastes, verses such as (3:19-20;9:4-6,10) are spoken by Solomon at a time in his life when he had turned his back on God, and was living ''under the sun.'' That's a phrase that occurs a number of times in Ecclesiastes. Solomon was pursuing happiness in every way that a person can, and happiness kept eluding him. Solomon was at this time in his life, thinking just like an unbeliever thinks. He was not able to think in terms of someone oriented to the truth of God's revealed word, but could only think in the same way that an unsaved man thinks. Under the sun. His thoughts about death were not accurate, but in the interest of showing what happens to the thinking of a man who turns away from God, God allowed the erronious thoughts of Solomon to be recorded in the Word of God.


The many verses in the Bible that talk about death as sleep, never refer to the soul, but only to the body.

For instance, in Matthew 27:52 ''and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;'' it is a reference to the body and not the soul. From the standpoint of God, the death of the body is nothing more than sleep as the body will be raised again in resurrection.

As the passages listed show, the soul of the believer goes into the presence of the Lord in a conscious state, and the soul of the unbeliever goes into Hades in a conscious state. There is no such thing as soul sleep.
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Old 10-17-2009, 09:15 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,386,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
There are some who erroniously believe in soul sleep. This is due to a misunderstanding of, and the ignoring of certain passages in the Bible.

Let's look first at a verse which shows the soul in Heaven. In itself, it puts the lie to the concept of soul sleep.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand (these are the souls of both the Old Testament saints and the souls of the martyred Tribulational believers); and they came to life (the physical resurrection of their bodies) and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Here's what Paul has to say about it. Philippians 1:23 ''But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24) yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

Now, Paul was not saying that it is very much better to depart and to be dead in a grave; he said it is very much better to depart and be with Christ.


Here is what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 5:8-9 we are of good courage, I say,and prefer to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 9) Therefore also we have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

Paul did not say, ''I prefer to be absent from the body and dead in a grave;'' He said ''and to be at home with the Lord.''


Now lets look at the soul in Sheol (Hebrew); known as Hades (Greek)

The following paragraph is from the footnotes of the New Scofield Reference Edition Bible; on page 954, in the chapter of Habakkuk, regarding Habakkuk 2:5.

4(2:5)Sheol is, in the Old Testament, the place where the dead go. (1) Often, therefore, it is spoken of as the equivalent of the grave, where all human activities cease; the terminus toward which all of human life moves (e.g. Gen. 42:38; Job 14:13; Ps.88:3). (2) To the man ''under the sun,'' the natural man, who of necessity judges from appearances, sheol seems no more than the grave--the end and total cessation, not only of the activities of life, but also of life itself (Eccl.9:5;10). But (3) Scipture reveals sheol as a place of sorrow (2 Sam.22:6; Ps.18:5;116:3), into which the wicked are turned (Ps.9:17), and where they are fully conscious (Isa.14:9-17;Ezek.32:21). Compare Jon.2:2; what the belly of the great fish was to Jonah, sheol is to those who are therein.

2 Samuel 22:6 The sorrows of sheol compassed me about; the snares of death came upon me.

Psalms 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of sheol got hold upon me; I found trouble and sorrow.

Ezekiel 32:21 The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the mouth of sheol with those who help him; they are gone down, they lieuncircumcised, slain by the sword.

Compare these verses about Sheol with what luke 16:19-31 says about Hades. They are the same place.


In Ecclesiastes, verses such as (3:19-20;9:4-6,10) are spoken by Solomon at a time in his life when he had turned his back on God, and was living ''under the sun.'' That's a phrase that occurs a number of times in Ecclesiastes. Solomon was pursuing happiness in every way that a person can, and happiness kept eluding him. Solomon was at this time in his life, thinking just like an unbeliever thinks. He was not able to think in terms of someone oriented to the truth of God's revealed word, but could only think in the same way that an unsaved man thinks. Under the sun. His thoughts about death were not accurate, but in the interest of showing what happens to the thinking of a man who turns away from God, God allowed the erronious thoughts of Solomon to be recorded in the Word of God.


The many verses in the Bible that talk about death as sleep, never refer to the soul, but only to the body.

For instance, in Matthew 27:52 ''and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;'' it is a reference to the body and not the soul. From the standpoint of God, the death of the body is nothing more than sleep as the body will be raised again in resurrection.

As the passages listed show, the soul of the believer goes into the presence of the Lord in a conscious state, and the soul of the unbeliever goes into Hades in a conscious state. There is no such thing as soul sleep.
This from the guy who thinks Lazarus being 4 days in the grave was resuscitated yet Christ in the grave 3 was resurrected... AND who believes that the OT saints (some as many as 2000 years in the grave) were resuscitated and roamed the city without one person besides Matthew seeing them!
AND that believes that some people lucky enough to be 2000+ years later than the disciples will be raptured without dying at all! only to be in a "resurrected body?"

I think you have a warped sense of the afterlife anyway but that is just my opinion...
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Old 10-17-2009, 11:26 PM
 
37,496 posts, read 25,232,088 times
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
This from the guy who thinks Lazarus being 4 days in the grave was resuscitated yet Christ in the grave 3 was resurrected... AND who believes that the OT saints (some as many as 2000 years in the grave) were resuscitated and roamed the city without one person besides Matthew seeing them!
AND that believes that some people lucky enough to be 2000+ years later than the disciples will be raptured without dying at all! only to be in a "resurrected body?"

I think you have a warped sense of the afterlife anyway but that is just my opinion...
You have a way of going right to the heart of the issues, Kat. . . . still can't rep ya.
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Germany
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What about Job 3:13-19?

For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest, With kings and counsellors of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves; Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver: Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light. There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest. There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor. The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

and Job 14:13?

O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave [sheol], that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

if the dead are alive and have ever been, and the righteous are in a place of bliss and have ever been, what should Jesus have died for?, from what should Jesus have saved the righteous, if their souls already were in a place of bliss before His death and ressurection?

Genesis 37:35

And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave [sheol] unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.

Jakob also expected to go down to sheol in sorrow, yet I can hardly believe he supposed to go to a place known as hell today.

This verse is the first time sheol is mentioned in the entire bible and it refers to a righteous person
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Old 10-18-2009, 10:28 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,487,341 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
This from the guy who thinks Lazarus being 4 days in the grave was resuscitated


yet Christ in the grave 3 was resurrected...


the disciples will be raptured without dying at all! only to be in a "resurrected body?"

.
all such things are clearly taught in the bible...I got no problem with them....
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Old 10-18-2009, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
all such things are clearly taught in the bible...I got no problem with them....
I don't have a problem with Lazarus being resuscitated, obviously that was the case. But to emphatically say that people dead for 2000+ years are reanimated? I don't think even Mary Shelley would call that resuscitation.

It's more likely that Jesus was resuscitated than resurrected in that case.

Webster's defines resuscitation as: to revive, esp. from apparent death or from unconsciousness.

One is never resuscitated from DEATH but only apparent death. It is widely known that those who are truly dead cannot be resuscitated. So by definition of the word, the OT saints could not have been resuscitated.

Webster's defines resurrection as: to raise from the dead; bring to life again.

Which is exactly what happened to Jesus, Lazarus, and the OT saints (if in fact it is the OT saints that were raised). Which then puts a problematic twist on the rapture, in fact adding a resurrection.

So perhaps Lazarus was not fully dead? Jesus said that he was asleep (John 11:11).

Is it also you who thinks that the body houses both soul and spirit?

Perhaps that is your problem. It is inherently carnal to think this body we have is any more than just dust waiting to go back to dust. Yet there is the belief that the body must be reanimated for resurrection to occur. Not only that but some are taken up bodily into the clouds during the rapture yet are described as resurrected in Rev. 20. Which of course wouldn't work if that resurrection were taken by a bunch of OT saints considering that they couldn't, by definition, have been resuscitated.

Ecclesiastes 9:5. "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

God's message is about being here on earth in the process of living. Even ancient OT writers knew that!

So why speculate about soul sleep? You are taking an erroneous statement and trying to prove another erroneous statement! It will never work.
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Old 10-18-2009, 11:35 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,487,341 times
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
. But to emphatically say that people dead for 2000+ years are reanimated?...


So perhaps Lazarus was not fully dead? Jesus said that he was asleep (John 11:11).
first, Does the Bible actually say that people that had been dead for 2000 years came back to life?

and...

secondly, Jesus says clearly later that Lazarus was dead....dead is dead...

Jesus sat on his butt for 4 days to make sure that no one would be able to question later if perhaps Lazarus was not all that dead...

Jesus wants you to believe that Lazarus was stone cold dead and rotting...
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Old 10-18-2009, 11:41 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,487,341 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Is it also you who thinks that the body houses both soul and spirit?
Here is my views on that...

I dont get mixed up into the whole - "Is man Body,soul, and spirit?" or "Is man just Body an soul/spirit?

(The difference being one is spoken with the word "and' to mean 3 things, and the other makes us of the slash "/" to mean 2 things.)

But what i know is , that when you bury someone in the ground, their inner spirit is not in the casket.

That at the moment of death we step right into being in front of the Lord...There is not the slightest break, or moment of unconsciousness.
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Old 10-18-2009, 11:50 AM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,642,764 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
first, Does the Bible actually say that people that had been dead for 2000 years came back to life?

and...

secondly, Jesus says clearly later that Lazarus was dead....dead is dead...

Jesus sat on his butt for 4 days to make sure that no one would be able to question later if perhaps Lazarus was not all that dead...

Jesus wants you to believe that Lazarus was stone cold dead and rotting...
Actually Alan, I never said anything about people who were dead for two thousand years being resuscitated. This poster came to that conclusion all by herself. The Bible simply says in Matt 27:52 ''and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. (resuscitated).'' The two thousand years is this posters invention to try to ridicule the idea.
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Old 10-18-2009, 11:55 AM
 
5,733 posts, read 4,581,672 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
secondly, Jesus says clearly later that Lazarus was dead....dead is dead...

Jesus sat on his butt for 4 days to make sure that no one would be able to question later if perhaps Lazarus was not all that dead...

Jesus wants you to believe that Lazarus was stone cold dead and rotting...
Agreed.
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