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Old 10-25-2009, 05:19 PM
 
17,751 posts, read 15,613,346 times
Reputation: 6391

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
If you believe that, then the Book of Revelation would be nothing but a Book of nonsense. Yet with out the Book of Revelation, many of the other prophecies of the Bible could not be understood. I believe your take on the Book of Revelation has come about from a rather youthful approach. And certainly not from any deep understanding of the Text itself.
Hi Campbell34,

Yes it can be understood, just not literally. The hail stones that weighed a talent were the same weight as a Roman catapult stone. I believe Revelation 16 was the Roman conquest of Judea from the Legions on the Euphrates, to the burning of the cities, to the battles on the sea in which filled the sea with blood. You can find this in Josephus and Tacitus.
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Old 10-25-2009, 06:33 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 863,914 times
Reputation: 205
Campbell34,

Two questions...

1.) Why do you keep using the term "Rapture?" That it is un-Biblical in the strictest sense should be enough reason to stop. Use Biblical categories by using Scriptural terminology to describe things of faith and practice. Has no one taught you these rules: For your confession of faith use the words God chose to make His revelation known. Consult the original languages to verify things of importance. Use concordances to determine what is or is not written. Do you have a problem with that? It depends on what book or spokesman I consult for the meaning of Rapture. I can't look it up in the Bible to define it. I believe God will bring a generation into full Overcoming victory, even over death; but, I can't use the mish mash filled word "Rapture" for it.

2.) Did you forget I shared from the top 5 Encyclopedias in English as well as the Encyclopedia Judaica that the all concur, there is no such thing as a "Jewish" race? You keep referring to God's promise to Israel as a race of people. That has even been mistranslated in modern versions like the New American Standard Bible, using "descendents" instead of "seed" singular, which is what is really written.

It takes quite a while to stop a loaded train.

Concerning other matters we've raised...I had a series of dreams in the early 70's after I'd known the Lord for only a few years. One of the things in various ways I was shown was a nuclear bomb carried on a suicide plane flying below the radar that was detonated on Minneapolis, Minnesota. When I shared the series with a packed out home church, having the last dream that morning, I felt very smitten afterword. I prayed earnestly because God had not told me I was a prophet. Within 7 days I met 10 people who either told what someone else they personally knew experienced in dreams or visions confirming it or they themselves had experienced such. While my own revelations in dreams or visions is what I carry a responsibility concerning, I thought what one brother I met within the first week saw about 10 major US cities being bombed with nuclear weapons was the truth.

Last edited by JamesMRohde; 10-25-2009 at 06:45 PM..
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Old 10-25-2009, 07:24 PM
 
21,637 posts, read 16,618,839 times
Reputation: 8601
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
Campbell34,

Two questions...

1.) Why do you keep using the term "Rapture?" That it is un-Biblical in the strictest sense should be enough reason to stop. Use Biblical categories by using Scriptural terminology to describe things of faith and practice. Has no one taught you these rules: For your confession of faith use the words God chose to make His revelation known. Consult the original languages to verify things of importance. Use concordances to determine what is or is not written. Do you have a problem with that? It depends on what book or spokesman I consult for the meaning of Rapture. I can't look it up in the Bible to define it. I believe God will bring a generation into full Overcoming victory, even over death; but, I can't use the mish mash filled word "Rapture" for it.
The term 'Rapture' is a theological term and is perfectly fine. 'Rapture' in the context of eschatology is an English word derived from the Latin 'rapio-raptus-rapere' which means--'to carry away', or 'caught up' as found in the Vulgate rendering of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.


Quote:
2.) Did you forget I shared from the top 5 Encyclopedias in English as well as the Encyclopedia Judaica that the all concur, there is no such thing as a "Jewish" race? You keep referring to God's promise to Israel as a race of people. That has even been mistranslated in modern versions like the New American Standard Bible, using "descendents" instead of "seed" singular, which is what is really written.
The Jewish race had its origins with Abraham, and God has made eternal promises to Abraham and his descendents, which require that God insures that the Jews as a race continue forever. There are the Abrahamic, Palestinian, Davidic, and the New Covenant to Israel, which are all eternal in nature, and guarantee the eternal existance of the Jewish race.

Quote:
It takes quite a while to stop a loaded train.

Concerning other matters we've raised...I had a series of dreams in the early 70's after I'd known the Lord for only a few years. One of the things in various ways I was shown was a nuclear bomb carried on a suicide plane flying below the radar that was detonated on Minneapolis, Minnesota. When I shared the series with a packed out home church, having the last dream that morning, I felt very smitten afterword. I prayed earnestly because God had not told me I was a prophet. Within 7 days I met 10 people who either told what someone else they personally knew experienced in dreams or visions confirming it or they themselves had experienced such. While my own revelations in dreams or visions is what I carry a responsibility concerning, I thought what one brother I met within the first week saw about 10 major US cities being bombed with nuclear weapons was the truth.
There are no prophets today. There hasn't been since the early Church-age. (1 Corinthians 13:8)
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Old 10-25-2009, 10:31 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,654,090 times
Reputation: 1694
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The term 'Rapture' is a theological term and is perfectly fine. 'Rapture' in the context of eschatology is an English word derived from the Latin 'rapio-raptus-rapere' which means--'to carry away', or 'caught up' as found in the Vulgate rendering of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.




The Jewish race had its origins with Abraham, and God has made eternal promises to Abraham and his descendents, which require that God insures that the Jews as a race continue forever. There are the Abrahamic, Palestinian, Davidic, and the New Covenant to Israel, which are all eternal in nature, and guarantee the eternal existance of the Jewish race.



There are no prophets today. There hasn't been since the early Church-age. (1 Corinthians 13:8)
There are no Jews of the bloodline of Abraham today...
Therefore fulfillment as you see it is impossible. It's like if I take my Vodka and water it down.. after a while it doesn't resemble Vodka at all.

The same can be said of Jews today.. they are so far removed from the Jews of the 1st century that the longer the Lord waits to return (according to you) then the more impossible it becomes for there to be any true descendants of Abraham.. but then we see in the NT that descendants of Abraham are those that are in Christ.. not Semitic but of all races who are circumcised in the heart...

There is no Jewish race... there is only a Jewish religion. There are black jews, white jews, red jews, brown jews...

There is not a pure-blood jew to be found...
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Old 10-25-2009, 11:27 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 863,914 times
Reputation: 205
The term "Rapture" is not good! You admit it is un-Biblical and that should settle it. We are to use God's word, not tradition's for what we believe. It cannot be looked up in the Bible to determine its meaning. The meaning varies depending on who you consult. There is a mish mash of meanings stirred up together, some not in the Word either. Things are usually left out that have connection with things included in the "Rapture" doctrine. God gave us a Bible. He gave us various words about the consumation of His plan for us. We should use those and not "Theological" terms. You're telling me what God gave is inadequate at best. Certainly you think it is inferior to the traditions of other men you follow. You refuse to follow God's Word. Why would you think God's Word is inferior to use and continue defending man's word as a replacement? Your priorities are not all that're in question. To reject what God gave for our use in communicating about what pertains to Him, to degrade His gift of words to use, and to revile and reject those that plead for Him and what He says to be honored is the opposite of someone being led by the Holy Spirit.
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Old 10-26-2009, 01:31 AM
 
21,637 posts, read 16,618,839 times
Reputation: 8601
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
There are no Jews of the bloodline of Abraham today...
Therefore fulfillment as you see it is impossible. It's like if I take my Vodka and water it down.. after a while it doesn't resemble Vodka at all.

The same can be said of Jews today.. they are so far removed from the Jews of the 1st century that the longer the Lord waits to return (according to you) then the more impossible it becomes for there to be any true descendants of Abraham.. but then we see in the NT that descendants of Abraham are those that are in Christ.. not Semitic but of all races who are circumcised in the heart...

There is no Jewish race... there is only a Jewish religion. There are black jews, white jews, red jews, brown jews...

There is not a pure-blood jew to be found...
You have just called God a liar.

Last edited by Mike555; 10-26-2009 at 01:49 AM..
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Old 10-26-2009, 01:35 AM
 
21,637 posts, read 16,618,839 times
Reputation: 8601
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
The term "Rapture" is not good! You admit it is un-Biblical and that should settle it. We are to use God's word, not tradition's for what we believe. It cannot be looked up in the Bible to determine its meaning. The meaning varies depending on who you consult. There is a mish mash of meanings stirred up together, some not in the Word either. Things are usually left out that have connection with things included in the "Rapture" doctrine. God gave us a Bible. He gave us various words about the consumation of His plan for us. We should use those and not "Theological" terms. You're telling me what God gave is inadequate at best. Certainly you think it is inferior to the traditions of other men you follow. You refuse to follow God's Word. Why would you think God's Word is inferior to use and continue defending man's word as a replacement? Your priorities are not all that're in question. To reject what God gave for our use in communicating about what pertains to Him, to degrade His gift of words to use, and to revile and reject those that plead for Him and what He says to be honored is the opposite of someone being led by the Holy Spirit.
The word 'Rapture' is perfectly fine to use.
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Old 10-26-2009, 01:49 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,654,090 times
Reputation: 1694
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You have just called God a liar and you continue to display an abysmal lack of comprehension.
You say there will be a return of Jews to the land THEY were promised.. namely Palestine yet there are no true Jews of the bloodline of Abraham..

So there is no chance that God is a liar.. only that you as a futurist cannot comprehend that the God knew that the race of Jews would be no more so that is why he gave the promise of the seed of Abraham to Christ... Christ is the seed.. and through him non-Jews are Jews.. do you not read the bible?

Genesis 22:18 "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."

Gal. 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.

Acts 3:25 "It is you who are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, 'AND IN YOUR SEED ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.'

Yet you still claim that the Jews (who are religion-based and not semitic) will return to Palestine and will usher in the end times...

LOL it is not that I call God a liar but you who doesn't understand scripture.
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Old 10-26-2009, 01:11 PM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,869,387 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
Hi Campbell34,

Yes it can be understood, just not literally. The hail stones that weighed a talent were the same weight as a Roman catapult stone. I believe Revelation 16 was the Roman conquest of Judea from the Legions on the Euphrates, to the burning of the cities, to the battles on the sea in which filled the sea with blood. You can find this in Josephus and Tacitus.
You can believe what you want, but what occured in Judea back then does not even come close to fulfilling the porphecy of Revelation 16.
Verse 18 and 19 of that chapter speaks of the great earthquake. And that quake, will be the most powerful in human history. Nothing like that occured back then. Babylon the great was not divided into three parts. And none of the islands sank into the sea, nor were any mountains leveled. Sometimes we can try and force fit prophecy into historical events, yet doing so, has little to do with the actual truth of the prophecy.
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Old 10-26-2009, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,254,133 times
Reputation: 808
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwynedd1 View Post
Hi Campbell34,

Yes it can be understood, just not literally. The hail stones that weighed a talent were the same weight as a Roman catapult stone. I believe Revelation 16 was the Roman conquest of Judea from the Legions on the Euphrates, to the burning of the cities, to the battles on the sea in which filled the sea with blood. You can find this in Josephus and Tacitus.
Aaaahhhh....a voice of reason and one who's actually read the bible....how refreshing.
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