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Old 10-27-2009, 08:49 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
I have a question for the Pre-Trib people. Have you guys thought about what position you would take if your Eschatology does not work?

If Matt.24:34 - 'this generation' is the generation that sees those things begin to take place and this begining to take place starting in 1948 with the nation of Israel being born (the budding - Matt.24:32) or 1967 with Jerusalem what will happen when time runs out?

If someone was 13 yrs old (the coming of age for Jews) in 1948 and you add 80 years (a good solid generation) you would come to 2028 (that person would be 93 yrs old and right now they would be 82 - their going quick) for the 2nd coming. Now if you minus 7 years for the tribulation that puts you at 2021 - so the Rapture has to happen before then. That leaves 11 years left to see if the Pretrib position is right. What will you do then if it passes - go to posttrib, preterist, unbelief, forget Matt.24 relating to the birth of Israel but just the trib., or other?

If 1967 is your gig (which seems less likely) then that would put it at 2047 minus 7 = 2040. We have 30yrs left for the rapture to take place. Those people right now are 43 yrs old - the generation gap is closing fast. Same question though. A lot of you will still be here - what position will you take then?
I'm not pre-trib but I can see several ways out.. none of which I will disclose LOL ... None of which would match scripture but then I don't believe any futurist view aligns with scripture.
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Old 10-27-2009, 08:51 PM
 
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I never do Bible Math...

every person that does end times Bible math ends up teaching error.
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Old 10-27-2009, 09:19 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,651,035 times
Reputation: 7409
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
I have a question for the Pre-Trib people. Have you guys thought about what position you would take if your Eschatology does not work?

If Matt.24:34 - 'this generation' is the generation that sees those things begin to take place and this begining to take place starting in 1948 with the nation of Israel being born (the budding - Matt.24:32) or 1967 with Jerusalem what will happen when time runs out?

If someone was 13 yrs old (the coming of age for Jews) in 1948 and you add 80 years (a good solid generation) you would come to 2028 (that person would be 93 yrs old and right now they would be 82 - their going quick) for the 2nd coming. Now if you minus 7 years for the tribulation that puts you at 2021 - so the Rapture has to happen before then. That leaves 11 years left to see if the Pretrib position is right. What will you do then if it passes - go to posttrib, preterist, unbelief, forget Matt.24 relating to the birth of Israel but just the trib., or other?

If 1967 is your gig (which seems less likely) then that would put it at 2047 minus 7 = 2040. We have 30yrs left for the rapture to take place. Those people right now are 43 yrs old - the generation gap is closing fast. Same question though. A lot of you will still be here - what position will you take then?
Matthew chapters 24 and 25 have nothing to do with watching for the rapture. Now, I am pre-tribulation. And I know what I'm talking about. Jesus was talking to his disciples about the signs that would point not to the rapture, but to the end of the tribulation, and the second advent of Christ. The church-age hadn't even started yet. The disciples weren't interested in the end of a dispensation that hadn't even begun. They were interested in the return of Christ and when the kingdom would come. The end of the age the disciples were asking about was not the church-age, but the end of their age. The age of Israel. Once the rapture has occured, and the church-age is terminated, then the last seven years remaining to Israel will resume. Those last seven years remaining to Israel are the Tribulation.--The time of Jacobs trouble.(Jeremiah 30:7)

When Jesus told them in Matthew 24:34 ''Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.,'' He was referring to the generation of Tribulational believers that should be looking for the signs that Christ was telling them about. The signs that would indicate that the Tribulation was about to end and Christ was about to return.

Most pre-tribulational believers, including Hal Lindsey have it wrong. It has absolutely nothing to do with the generation of Church-age believers who see the return of the Jews to Israel. Now,the fact that there is now a nation of Israel may indeed be significant, because when Christ does return, He returns to an already existing nation of Israel. But that is not what Matthew 24:34 is talking about. Matthew chapters 24 and 25 are all concerned about the end of the Tribulation and the return of Christ. They are not about looking for signs of the rapture.

Here is a link with some information about it.

The Thomas Ice Collection
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Old 10-27-2009, 10:02 PM
 
5,496 posts, read 4,403,478 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Matthew chapters 24 and 25 have nothing to do with watching for the rapture. Now, I am pre-tribulation. And I know what I'm talking about. Jesus was talking to his disciples about the signs that would point not to the rapture, but to the end of the tribulation, and the second advent of Christ. The church-age hadn't even started yet. The disciples weren't interested in the end of a dispensation that hadn't even begun. They were interested in the return of Christ and when the kingdom would come. The end of the age the disciples were asking about was not the church-age, but the end of their age. The age of Israel. Once the rapture has occured, and the church-age is terminated, then the last seven years remaining to Israel will resume. Those last seven years remaining to Israel are the Tribulation.--The time of Jacobs trouble.(Jeremiah 30:7)

When Jesus told them in Matthew 24:34 ''Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.,'' He was referring to the generation of Tribulational believers that should be looking for the signs that Christ was telling them about. The signs that would indicate that the Tribulation was about to end and Christ was about to return.

Most pre-tribulational believers, including Hal Lindsey have it wrong. It has absolutely nothing to do with the generation of Church-age believers who see the return of the Jews to Israel. Now,the fact that there is now a nation of Israel may indeed be significant, because when Christ does return, He returns to an already existing nation of Israel. But that is not what Matthew 24:34 is talking about. Matthew chapters 24 and 25 are all concerned about the end of the Tribulation and the return of Christ. They are not about looking for signs of the rapture.

Here is a link with some information about it.

The Thomas Ice Collection
I am fully aware of your points and the Ice Man - my post was for those who use the birth of Israel as a sign. You obviously are not one of those pre-tribers.

But if the end of the OT age ended with the begining of the Church age how is there another 7 years left in the OT age? And I Understand your arguments but the text and you said 'end' not cessation or postponment.

Also if Matt.24 is about the end of the Trib where does the phrase 'all these things' fit in since they cover the whole 7 years not just the end of the trib?

Furthermore, if Jesus is just talking about the end of the Trib and His 2nd coming then verse 36 would be saying that he does not know when he is coming back (2nd coming) yet if the 7 year Trib is already known from Daniel and the abomonation of desolation as the mid trib then it is easy to figure out when he is coming back - after 7 yrs from the start and 3-1/2 yrs from the midpoint - why would he not know about his 2nd coming?
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Old 10-27-2009, 11:11 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,651,035 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
I am fully aware of your points and the Ice Man - my post was for those who use the birth of Israel as a sign. You obviously are not one of those pre-tribers.

But if the end of the OT age ended with the begining of the Church age how is there another 7 years left in the OT age? And I Understand your arguments but the text and you said 'end' not cessation or postponment.

Also if Matt.24 is about the end of the Trib where does the phrase 'all these things' fit in since they cover the whole 7 years not just the end of the trib?

Furthermore, if Jesus is just talking about the end of the Trib and His 2nd coming then verse 36 would be saying that he does not know when he is coming back (2nd coming) yet if the 7 year Trib is already known from Daniel and the abomonation of desolation as the mid trib then it is easy to figure out when he is coming back - after 7 yrs from the start and 3-1/2 yrs from the midpoint - why would he not know about his 2nd coming?
The age of Israel was not terminated, it was interrupted for the church-age. Jesus had offered the kingdom to Israel. Had the Jews accepted Him as the Messiah, Christ would have still have to have gone to the Cross in order to pay for the sins of the world and provide salvation. But after that, He could have brought in the physical, political, Millennial kingdom right then and there.

Now, Christ had always known from eternity past, that Israel would reject Him as the Messiah, but He still had to make the offer, so that their volition could come into play. When they did reject Him, He began to turn away from them, and began to talk about establishing the church. This is also the time that He began to speak in parables in public when addressing the Jews.

Now, when Christ went to the Cross, and paid for our sins, He won the stragetic victory over Satan, and was given the title, 'King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the bright Morning Star.'' Now, He interrupted the age of Israel in order to call out a royal family for Himself to go with His royal title. The church is the royal family of God, and is also called the body of Christ, as well as, after the rapture, the 'bride of Christ.'' So the age of Israel was put on hold until the church is completed and taken off the earth and into Heaven. This is when the last seven years remaining to Israel resume as the Tribulation. The end of the Tribulation is the end of the age of Israel. This is when Christ returns and sets up the Millennial Kingdom.

As the tribulation progresses, the events that are spoken of by Christ will play out. For instance when the abomination of Desolation is revealed, the Jewish believers that are paying attention will know it is time to flee to the mountaIns. As it gets closer to the end of the tribulation, the signs indicate that. Now, we know that the Tribulation is going to be seven years in length, because we read it in the Bible. But for the people who find themselves in the Tribulation and wondering what happened to all the people who mysteriously disappeared off the earth, and are trying to adapt to the events that are occuring on the earth, they don't know what's going on. But for those who begin to believe in Christ; remember that there will be the 144,000 witnesses, those who pay attention to the signs will know what they are supposed to do.

As for Christ not knowing the day or the hour, That's exactly what He meant. The 'day' or the 'hour'. He was speaking from the standpoint of his humanity. As the God-Man, it was possible for Christ to be both omniscience and ignorant of something. Christ refrained from using His deity while on the earth, at least for the most part, and instead relied on the ministry of God the Holy Spirit to sustain Him. This was because Christ was the pattern, the type for how we as believers are to rely on the Holy Spirit to sustain our spiritual life. So when Christ chose not to use His deity, well for instance, as a child he had to learn and progress to spiritual maturity, just like any other member of the human race. So speaking as a man, and not using His deity, he did not know the day or the hour of His return.
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Old 10-27-2009, 11:17 PM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,676,547 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
Yep...that's what happens when one tries to read scripture "literally".
Yes, and that is why a billion people call Jesus Christ God. Jesus Christ fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament "literally". Did you fail to notice that?
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Old 10-27-2009, 11:33 PM
 
5,496 posts, read 4,403,478 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The age of Israel was not terminated, it was interrupted for the church-age. Jesus had offered the kingdom to Israel. Had the Jews accepted Him as the Messiah, Christ would have still have to have gone to the Cross in order to pay for the sins of the world and provide salvation. But after that, He could have brought in the physical, political, Millennial kingdom right then and there.

Now, Christ had always known from eternity past, that Israel would reject Him as the Messiah, but He still had to make the offer, so that their volition could come into play. When they did reject Him, He began to turn away from them, and began to talk about establishing the church. This is also the time that He began to speak in parables in public when addressing the Jews.

Now, when Christ went to the Cross, and paid for our sins, He won the stragetic victory over Satan, and was given the title, 'King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the bright Morning Star.'' Now, He interrupted the age of Israel in order to call out a royal family for Himself to go with His royal title. The church is the royal family of God, and is also called the body of Christ, as well as, after the rapture, the 'bride of Christ.'' So the age of Israel was put on hold until the church is completed and taken off the earth and into Heaven. This is when the last seven years remaining to Israel resume as the Tribulation. The end of the Tribulation is the end of the age of Israel. This is when Christ returns and sets up the Millennial Kingdom.

As the tribulation progresses, the events that are spoken of by Christ will play out. For instance when the abomination of Desolation is revealed, the Jewish believers that are paying attention will know it is time to flee to the mountaIns. As it gets closer to the end of the tribulation, the signs indicate that. Now, we know that the Tribulation is going to be seven years in length, because we read it in the Bible. But for the people who find themselves in the Tribulation and wondering what happened to all the people who mysteriously disappeared off the earth, and are trying to adapt to the events that are occuring on the earth, they don't know what's going on. But for those who begin to believe in Christ; remember that there will be the 144,000 witnesses, those who pay attention to the signs will know what they are supposed to do.

As for Christ not knowing the day or the hour, That's exactly what He meant. The 'day' or the 'hour'. He was speaking from the standpoint of his humanity. As the God-Man, it was possible for Christ to be both omniscience and ignorant of something. Christ refrained from using His deity while on the earth, at least for the most part, and instead relied on the ministry of God the Holy Spirit to sustain Him. This was because Christ was the pattern, the type for how we as believers are to rely on the Holy Spirit to sustain our spiritual life. So when Christ chose not to use His deity, well for instance, as a child he had to learn and progress to spiritual maturity, just like any other member of the human race. So speaking as a man, and not using His deity, he did not know the day or the hour of His return.
I am well aware of the pretrib position you do not need to answer with an outline of the events as you see them.

Your first paragraph did not answer the question - The 'end' means termination not interuption. If the disciples are refering to the end of the OT age Jesus did not even answer their question (because he is referring to the church age and the 2nd coming in verses 4-36) and there would be no 7 years remaining because the word 'end' was used.

Regarding the day and hour - I am not hung up on the hypostatic union of Christ or his ontology - but the fact that even in his humanity he should have known because of the 7 year trib. He even says '...immediately after the tribulation of those days... the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven...' So he knows when the 2nd coming is.
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Old 10-27-2009, 11:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Nope.. the only ones who even claim to be descendants of the original 12 tribes are the black hebrews.. and they were banned from citizenship until 2003 BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT OF THE JEWISH FAITH. see The Hebrew Israelite Community

You ignore the facts to continue in your belief. You concede that they don't have to be 100% blood related and I am saying that if I profess faith in Judaism I can also apply for citzenship, yet I have maybe .0001% of Jewish blood in my system and that is pure speculation!

This happened when Jesus taught the truth of God...

If what you say is true then it is also true that since Rome was a mix of all nations then they can be said to be all the nations of earth gathered against her. Jerusalem is an immovable rock.. Jesus!

Jesus conquered all!

AGAIN- Jesus was from the lineage of DAVID and it is plain that God poured out his spirit on Jesus.

Yep this already happened.. can you not see that?

HUH?

So you think that all people who are Jews (of Judaism) are responsible for the death of Christ? Even though you admit they may not be 100% blood related? I have heard of the sins of the father being imputed on the offspring but that is a total stretch.

Can only? Yet you completely ignore Zec. 13:1 “On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.

On the very day (or time) is the same time that Jesus cleanses them from sin.. is this to happen again too?

Jesus quotes from Zech 13 here:
Matthew 26:31 Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED.'
I don't think you understand.


Yet you say that nothing like Zech. 12 has ever happened before? but Zech. 13 has happened?

Compare Zech. 12:3 and Matt. 21:44; Zech 12:10 to John 19:37

What you are saying is simply not true. Perhaps you were taught this and it is only that you just accepted it.
God is speaking of those who are living in Jerusalem in the last days. And how do you make Jerusalem into Jesus. It's obvious, your not paying any attention to what the Text is actually saying. And Rome was not all nations. And Rome moved Jerusalem, and in fact, buried it. God said when all nations come against Jerusalem, God would make Jerusalem an immovable rock. Rome was not injured, and Jerusalem was destroyed. This prophecy was never fulfilled in the past, and could only be fulfilled in the future. And your the only one who thinks there must be this 100% bloodline, nothing like this is spoken of in the Scriptures for future Israel.
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Old 10-28-2009, 12:19 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 844,552 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
So the age of Israel was put on hold until the church is completed and taken off the earth and into Heaven. This is when the last seven years remaining to Israel resume as the Tribulation. The end of the Tribulation is the end of the age of Israel. This is when Christ returns and sets up the Millennial Kingdom.

As the tribulation progresses, the events that are spoken of by Christ will play out. For instance when the abomination of Desolation is revealed, the Jewish believers that are paying attention will know it is time to flee to the mountaIns. As it gets closer to the end of the tribulation, the signs indicate that. Now, we know that the Tribulation is going to be seven years in length, because we read it in the Bible. But for the people who find themselves in the Tribulation and wondering what happened to all the people who mysteriously disappeared off the earth, and are trying to adapt to the events that are occuring on the earth, they don't know what's going on. But for those who begin to believe in Christ; remember that there will be the 144,000 witnesses, those who pay attention to the signs will know what they are supposed to do.
God was never, is not now, and never wil be a racist.

Nothing about the removal of the Church in the Bible. It is God's agent and the center of His plan for the transition into the Milennium.

God proves Who His chosen people are by giving them the Holy Spirit.

Romans 2:28-29 (Authorized Version)...
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


I guess you have too much vested in "The Seven Years Great Tribulation" to bother even finding that phrase in the Bible. Of course you can't; but, that doesn't seem to encourage you to seek God and His word that you may be approved of Him. Is it the approval of men that is so important to you? Maybe you'll be thrown out of a church if you deviated from them on this? I have been more than once, as well as on other matters, and it still hurts; but, because of the truth, I expect Jesus to bind up my wounds and reward me. He has done some wonderful things that He promised.
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Old 10-28-2009, 12:38 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,389,248 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
God is speaking of those who are living in Jerusalem in the last days. And how do you make Jerusalem into Jesus. It's obvious, your not paying any attention to what the Text is actually saying. And Rome was not all nations. And Rome moved Jerusalem, and in fact, buried it. God said when all nations come against Jerusalem, God would make Jerusalem an immovable rock. Rome was not injured, and Jerusalem was destroyed. This prophecy was never fulfilled in the past, and could only be fulfilled in the future. And your the only one who thinks there must be this 100% bloodline, nothing like this is spoken of in the Scriptures for future Israel.
Apparently you did not read my post..

The immovable rock IS JESUS..

The burdensome stone is Judaism of legalism..

I just showed that the NT quotes these passages you say are future yet the NT believes they pertained to then.. are you saying that those who wrote the NT did not realize that this fulfillment was WAY in the future?

Rome was indeed conquered... Do you not know of the Roman Church? The Romans became believers in the very God that the Jews abandoned!

Have you ever read Josephus' writings on the war and destruction that he himself witnessed? Ever wonder why his writings survived all these years? It was a monumental event that Josephus says was the worst in history at that time...

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