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Old 10-29-2009, 12:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Jesus was not refering to the church age. He was refering to the Tribulation. The End of the Tribulation is the End of the age of Israel. Matthew chapters 24 and 25 have nothing to do with the church. They are refering to the Tribulation, and therefore, to Israel. The signs of the end of the Age, refers to the end of the age of Israel, which is the end of the Tribulation. Not the end of the church-age.

I have already explained in the previous post why the age of Israel was interupted and why it will resume as the tribulation. I have already explained that Matthew 24 and 25 refer to Israel during the tribulation and not to the end of the church age. If you do not understand what was presented in that post, then there is nothing else that you will understand concerning this subject.

Again, Jesus said that no one knows the day or the hour. That was a warning for the Tribulational saints to be paying attention and to be prepared for the second coming of Christ to put an end to the tribulation, and so they would be prepared to enter into the kingdom at His arrival.
Mike there needs to be some clarification:

I was not giving my own interpretation but asking questions about yours.

I thought you said (in one of your posts) that the OT age ended before the Church Age (maybe I misunderstood). Therefore, since end means termination what Jesus would have been saying if that were true would have been about the church because the disciples asked about the 2nd coming and the end of the age in verse 3. Both the 2nd coming and the end of the age happen together so if the end of the OT age happened before the church age Jesus must have been (logically speaking not my position) about the Church Age even as some pre-tribers say.

Clarification also needed to be in regard to what you said that Matt.24 and 25 are about the tribulation - but that cannot be exactly the case because of verses 2-14 in Matt.24. There we have the Temple destruction and in verse 14 'the gospel of the kindom being preached in all the world' - that is during the church age. Only Matt.24:15 and on are about the tribulation.

My own personal view is post-trib just so you know where I am coming from.
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Old 10-29-2009, 01:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Mike there needs to be some clarification:

I was not giving my own interpretation but asking questions about yours.

I thought you said (in one of your posts) that the OT age ended before the Church Age (maybe I misunderstood). Therefore, since end means termination what Jesus would have been saying if that were true would have been about the church because the disciples asked about the 2nd coming and the end of the age in verse 3. Both the 2nd coming and the end of the age happen together so if the end of the OT age happened before the church age Jesus must have been (logically speaking not my position) about the Church Age even as some pre-tribers say.

Clarification also needed to be in regard to what you said that Matt.24 and 25 are about the tribulation - but that cannot be exactly the case because of verses 2-14 in Matt.24. There we have the Temple destruction and in verse 14 'the gospel of the kindom being preached in all the world' - that is during the church age. Only Matt.24:15 and on are about the tribulation.

My own personal view is post-trib just so you know where I am coming from.
No. I never said that the Age of Israel ended before the church age began, unless I was careless in my wording, which I don't think I was. The age of Israel was interrupted, or put on hold, until the church-age has completed.

In Matt. 24:2 Jesus is talking about the destruction of the temple which was to occur in A.D. 70. Then in verse 3, the disciples ask when the temple would be destroyed, and in their minds they link the destruction of the temple with the end of the age and the return of Christ. Jesus addresses only their question concerning the end of the age, and His return, which is of course, the end of the Tribulation. And so, in verse 5, the tribulational events are described by Christ.

The Tribulation begins with unbelievers only. There are no believers on the earth at the beginning of the Tribulation. But by reading the Bible, and because God raises up 144,000 witnesses, and because even angels will be evangelizing the world, an increasing number of people will believe in Christ. Once the entire world during the Tribulation has been evangelized, the end of the Tribulation will come. Matt. 24:14 ''And this gospel of the kingdom...'', it is the kingdom (the Millennial kingdom of Christ) which is being preached to those who are in the tribulation and will if prepared, go into the Kingdom.


You say you believe in a post-Tribulation rapture.

But as long as the church is on the earth, with the Holy Spirit indwelling the body of each believer and restraining the appearance of the antichrist, the Tribulation cannot begin. The church must first be removed via the exit-resurrection or rapture.

Also, the Bema Seat or judgment seat of Christ for believers takes place in Heaven while the tribulation is occuring on the earth.

Additionally, Rev. 19:7 describes the church-the bride, in Heaven, again, while the tribulation is taking place on earth.

Further, the church returns with Christ at His second coming, which means that the church has to have been previously taken up into Heaven.

Jude 14 '...Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,(saints) 15) to execute judgment upon all...'' Now, compare Jude 14 with:

Rev.19:8 ''And it was given to her (the church-the bride) to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

and with:

Rev. 9:14 'And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were folowing Him on white horses.

Once Christ returns at the second advent, He stays on the earth, and so the only time frame for Rev. 19:7-8 is before the second advent of Christ.

Last edited by Mike555; 10-29-2009 at 01:13 PM..
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Old 10-29-2009, 02:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No. I never said that the Age of Israel ended before the church age began, unless I was careless in my wording, which I don't think I was. The age of Israel was interrupted, or put on hold, until the church-age has completed.

In Matt. 24:2 Jesus is talking about the destruction of the temple which was to occur in A.D. 70. Then in verse 3, the disciples ask when the temple would be destroyed, and in their minds they link the destruction of the temple with the end of the age and the return of Christ. Jesus addresses only their question concerning the end of the age, and His return, which is of course, the end of the Tribulation. And so, in verse 5, the tribulational events are described by Christ.

The Tribulation begins with unbelievers only. There are no believers on the earth at the beginning of the Tribulation. But by reading the Bible, and because God raises up 144,000 witnesses, and because even angels will be evangelizing the world, an increasing number of people will believe in Christ. Once the entire world during the Tribulation has been evangelized, the end of the Tribulation will come. Matt. 24:14 ''And this gospel of the kingdom...'', it is the kingdom (the Millennial kingdom of Christ) which is being preached to those who are in the tribulation and will if prepared, go into the Kingdom.


You say you believe in a post-Tribulation rapture.

But as long as the church is on the earth, with the Holy Spirit indwelling the body of each believer and restraining the appearance of the antichrist, the Tribulation cannot begin. The church must first be removed via the exit-resurrection or rapture.

Also, the Bema Seat or judgment seat of Christ for believers takes place in Heaven while the tribulation is occuring on the earth.

Additionally, Rev. 19:7 describes the church-the bride, in Heaven, again, while the tribulation is taking place on earth.

Further, the church returns with Christ at His second coming, which means that the church has to have been previously taken up into Heaven.

Jude 14 '...Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,(saints) 15) to execute judgment upon all...'' Now, compare Jude 14 with:

Rev.19:8 ''And it was given to her (the church-the bride) to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

and with:

Rev. 9:14 'And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were folowing Him on white horses.

Once Christ returns at the second advent, He stays on the earth, and so the only time frame for Rev. 19:7-8 is before the second advent of Christ.
Glad we cleared that up.

That was my point that part of Matt.24 was about the destruction of the temple not just the tribulation.

As far as Matt.24:3-14 I understand what you are saying I just do not think it matters either way - it can be tallikng about either the church age or the begining of the tribulation. Jesus' phrases 'but the end is not yet' v.6 and 'and then the end will come' v.14 are taken by some as preceeding the trib. - to me it does not matter because it has no effect on post or pre-trib. I just wanted clarity on your position because of the different types of takes on this passage among pretribers.

Your interpretation of II Thess. is completely unwarranted it is an inference based on your presupposition that the pretrib rapture is correct.

Rev. 19:7 is at the end of the trib - it is over and Jesus is coming back - the trib is not taking place at this time - all that is left is His judgment as he is coming back with his saints. Because Jesus comes back at this time does not mean that the church had to be taken out of the world before this time, that is your inference based on your assumption - the bride is ready now because they have been raptured/changed/resurrected in a moment in a twinkling of an eye (I Cor.15) as as he is descending (I Thess.4)- the Church is now (Rev.19) made ready, which interestingly is called saints, something that pretribers make a big deal about because the word "Church" is not mentioned in the tribulation that it cannot be there (arguments from silence are fallacious) yet the Bride as it is called here are called saints which is the term used for the tribulation believers - tribulation believers make up the Bride - they get to rule and reign with Christ (Rev.20:4) in His Kingdom. The fact that the term saints is used with the Bride should ruin the idea that because the term saints are used in the trib it cannot be church age believers. Why wasn't the Bride ready before this point if she was completed and raptured/resurrected 7years earlier? All of this accords with the timing of the rapture in I Thess.4 and I Cor.15 just before the 2nd coming (parousia) and the Kingdom - we do not have to invent new categories like the pre-2nd coming coming or the pre-1st resurrection resurrection. It all lines up beatifully.
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Old 10-29-2009, 05:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Glad we cleared that up.

That was my point that part of Matt.24 was about the destruction of the temple not just the tribulation.

As far as Matt.24:3-14 I understand what you are saying I just do not think it matters either way - it can be tallikng about either the church age or the begining of the tribulation. Jesus' phrases 'but the end is not yet' v.6 and 'and then the end will come' v.14 are taken by some as preceeding the trib. - to me it does not matter because it has no effect on post or pre-trib. I just wanted clarity on your position because of the different types of takes on this passage among pretribers.

Your interpretation of II Thess. is completely unwarranted it is an inference based on your presupposition that the pretrib rapture is correct.

Rev. 19:7 is at the end of the trib - it is over and Jesus is coming back - the trib is not taking place at this time - all that is left is His judgment as he is coming back with his saints. Because Jesus comes back at this time does not mean that the church had to be taken out of the world before this time, that is your inference based on your assumption - the bride is ready now because they have been raptured/changed/resurrected in a moment in a twinkling of an eye (I Cor.15) as as he is descending (I Thess.4)- the Church is now (Rev.19) made ready, which interestingly is called saints, something that pretribers make a big deal about because the word "Church" is not mentioned in the tribulation that it cannot be there (arguments from silence are fallacious) yet the Bride as it is called here are called saints which is the term used for the tribulation believers - tribulation believers make up the Bride - they get to rule and reign with Christ (Rev.20:4) in His Kingdom. The fact that the term saints is used with the Bride should ruin the idea that because the term saints are used in the trib it cannot be church age believers. Why wasn't the Bride ready before this point if she was completed and raptured/resurrected 7years earlier? All of this accords with the timing of the rapture in I Thess.4 and I Cor.15 just before the 2nd coming (parousia) and the Kingdom - we do not have to invent new categories like the pre-2nd coming coming or the pre-1st resurrection resurrection. It all lines up beatifully.
1 Thess. 4:17 is not the second advent of Christ. To be caught up-snatched away to meet the Lord in the air, does not fit the description of Zech. 14:4 in which Christ touches down on the Mount of Olives and sets off an earthquake.

The events of Rev 19:7 concerning the bride-the church, in Heaven, precede the event of Rev 19:11 where John saw in his vision, the opening of Heaven and Christ returning to the earth, followed by the saints-the Church.

The church on earth is called the 'body of Christ', and in Heaven the church is called the 'bride of Christ.' When the 'body of Christ' is complete, it is taken up into Heaven, where it-actually 'she', is called 'the Bride of Christ. Notice that Rev 19:7 says ''Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.'' Once that has occured, then Rev. 19:11 occurs; Christ returns with His bride.

Tribulational believers are not the church and they are not the 'bride of Christ.' Israel has the title 'wife of Jehovah' . These are two different titles for two different groups of people.

John 14:1-3 indicates a heavenly destination for the Church age believer. Christ returns from His Father's house and catches up the church age believer and brings them to Heaven.

V2) 'In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3)''And if I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Now, when any church age believer dies, he goes directly into the presence of the Lord in Heaven. At the time of the rapture, those believers who are already in Heaven will come with Christ when He descends from Heaven with a shout...;and the dead shall rise first. (The just mentioned dead in Christ.) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.'' At the rapture, the Lord returns and catches up those ''who are alive and remain on the earth.'' And then the church is together in Heaven in the many dwelling places mentioned in John 14:1-3.

Then, the Bema Seat judgment takes place,and the preparation of the bride in Rev. 19:7, and then, Rev. 19:11, Christ returns with the church to the earth.
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Old 10-29-2009, 06:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
1 Thess. 4:17 is not the second advent of Christ. To be caught up-snatched away to meet the Lord in the air, does not fit the description of Zech. 14:4 in which Christ touches down on the Mount of Olives and sets off an earthquake.

The events of Rev 19:7 concerning the bride-the church, in Heaven, precede the event of Rev 19:11 where John saw in his vision, the opening of Heaven and Christ returning to the earth, followed by the saints-the Church.

The church on earth is called the 'body of Christ', and in Heaven the church is called the 'bride of Christ.' When the 'body of Christ' is complete, it is taken up into Heaven, where it-actually 'she', is called 'the Bride of Christ. Notice that Rev 19:7 says ''Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.'' Once that has occured, then Rev. 19:11 occurs; Christ returns with His bride.

Tribulational believers are not the church and they are not the 'bride of Christ.' Israel has the title 'wife of Jehovah' . These are two different titles for two different groups of people.

John 14:1-3 indicates a heavenly destination for the Church age believer. Christ returns from His Father's house and catches up the church age believer and brings them to Heaven.

V2) 'In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3)''And if I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Now, when any church age believer dies, he goes directly into the presence of the Lord in Heaven. At the time of the rapture, those believers who are already in Heaven will come with Christ when He descends from Heaven with a shout...;and the dead shall rise first. (The just mentioned dead in Christ.) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.'' At the rapture, the Lord returns and catches up those ''who are alive and remain on the earth.'' And then the church is together in Heaven in the many dwelling places mentioned in John 14:1-3.

Then, the Bema Seat judgment takes place,and the preparation of the bride in Rev. 19:7, and then, Rev. 19:11, Christ returns with the church to the earth.
Regarding I Thess.4:14-17: You have no justification (none) in saying it is not the 2nd coming. It says so in verse 14 'the coming (parousia) of the Lord' and v.16 - 'for the Lord himself will descend from heaven...' there is only 2 comings not 3. You just invent another coming thats all - very unscriptural. Look at the preceeeding context; chapter 4:6 - 'the Lord is the Avenger ...' Also, look at following context; chapter 5:2 - 'For you yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night...'

Now ask yourself in Rev. where Jesus says 'Behold I am coming as a thief...' Exactly - Rev.16:15 just before the last bowl is poured out He says that He is still (yet) coming as a thief. So He has not come as a thief yet has he? That is because The Day of the Lord is the day when he comes as a theif to judge the nations at the 2nd coming - it is called 'the battle of that great Day of God Almight.' (Rev.16:14)

Zech.14:14 is irrelevent - another argument from silence. Just because I Thess. does not mention the judgment of the nations or an earthquake does not mean Paul was not talking about the 2nd coming. Paul's focus is on believers who are alive and reamain until the 2nd coming of the Lord and who are resurrected at the 1st resurrection which happens at the 2nd coming not before the tribulation. Notice also that Zech.14:1 says it is 'the Day of the LORD' just like I Thess.5:1-2 when he goes and 'fights in the Day of battle.' v.3 - just like Rev.16:14 which is at the end of the Trib when Jesus comes as a thief.

The general order goes like this:

The Bride will be complete at the end of the Trib. (the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in) She will be ready for the Marriage supper of the Lamb.

Christ will start to descend.

The dead in Christ will rise and the alive in Christ will rise (raptured) or be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye and both will meet in the air.

Christ will continue His decent to the earth with His saints. He will not turn around to go back to heaven - that is stupid - He could have just raptured them to heaven why decend half way down?

This leads us to your other Scripture in John 14:1-3. What is the 'Fathers house'? Is it heaven or is it the Kingdom that is going to be on earth when Jesus returns? In this house there are 'many dwelling places' (that is positions or spots available - think RSVP). Jesus is going to prepare a place for his Bride in his Kingdom - just like any Bridgroom would prepare an extra room onto his fathers house. The house cannot be heaven - it does not need to be prepared - it is the Kingdom and it inhabitants. When Christ decides to come back all those places will be filled and the Kingdom will be on Earth when he descends with his Bride. Look what Jesus says 'And if I go and prepare a place for you I will come again (2nd coming) and recieve you to myself (Rapture) that where I am (that is when He comes again not where he is at when he was talking to his diciples or where he is at now) you may be also.' Where will he be when he comes again? --- thats right, on earth. They will be the ones who will rule and reign with him in his Kingdom - it is thier privlege to be where he is when he comes again and rules.
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Old 10-29-2009, 07:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Regarding I Thess.4:14-17: You have no justification (none) in saying it is not the 2nd coming. It says so in verse 14 'the coming (parousia) of the Lord' and v.16 - 'for the Lord himself will descend from heaven...' there is only 2 comings not 3. You just invent another coming thats all - very unscriptural. Look at the preceeeding context; chapter 4:6 - 'the Lord is the Avenger ...' Also, look at following context; chapter 5:2 - 'For you yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night...'

Now ask yourself in Rev. where Jesus says 'Behold I am coming as a thief...' Exactly - Rev.16:15 just before the last bowl is poured out He says that He is still (yet) coming as a thief. So He has not come as a thief yet has he? That is because The Day of the Lord is the day when he comes as a theif to judge the nations at the 2nd coming - it is called 'the battle of that great Day of God Almight.' (Rev.16:14)

Zech.14:14 is irrelevent - another argument from silence. Just because I Thess. does not mention the judgment of the nations or an earthquake does not mean Paul was not talking about the 2nd coming. Paul's focus is on believers who are alive and reamain until the 2nd coming of the Lord and who are resurrected at the 1st resurrection which happens at the 2nd coming not before the tribulation. Notice also that Zech.14:1 says it is 'the Day of the LORD' just like I Thess.5:1-2 when he goes and 'fights in the Day of battle.' v.3 - just like Rev.16:14 which is at the end of the Trib when Jesus comes as a thief.

The general order goes like this:

The Bride will be complete at the end of the Trib. (the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in) She will be ready for the Marriage supper of the Lamb.

Christ will start to descend.

The dead in Christ will rise and the alive in Christ will rise (raptured) or be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye and both will meet in the air.

Christ will continue His decent to the earth with His saints. He will not turn around to go back to heaven - that is stupid - He could have just raptured them to heaven why decend half way down?

This leads us to your other Scripture in John 14:1-3. What is the 'Fathers house'? Is it heaven or is it the Kingdom that is going to be on earth when Jesus returns? In this house there are 'many dwelling places' (that is positions or spots available - think RSVP). Jesus is going to prepare a place for his Bride in his Kingdom - just like any Bridgroom would prepare an extra room onto his fathers house. The house cannot be heaven - it does not need to be prepared - it is the Kingdom and it inhabitants. When Christ decides to come back all those places will be filled and the Kingdom will be on Earth when he descends with his Bride. Look what Jesus says 'And if I go and prepare a place for you I will come again (2nd coming) and recieve you to myself (Rapture) that where I am (that is when He comes again not where he is at when he was talking to his diciples or where he is at now) you may be also.' Where will he be when he comes again? --- thats right, on earth. They will be the ones who will rule and reign with him in his Kingdom - it is thier privlege to be where he is when he comes again and rules.
I have every justification for recognizing that 1 Thess. 4:11-17 is the rapture. I have given you the facts. If you choose not to believe it then stick with your misconceptions and leave it at that.
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Old 10-29-2009, 08:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I have every justification for recognizing that 1 Thess. 4:11-17 is the rapture. I have given you the facts. If you choose not to believe it then stick with your misconceptions and leave it at that.
There is no such thing as a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Jesus and Apostle Paul both make that clear.

Jesus tells us the proper order of events in Matthew 13 that the tares will be gathered before the wheat and the harvest is the END OF THE AGE.Christians[wheat] cannot be harvested before the lost[the tares].

Paul tells us in 2 THESS Chapter 2 that the son of perdition must sit in the temple and show himself to be God before we are gathered back to Christ. He is describing the appearance of the final Antichrist which happens DURING the Great Tribulation Period.

We are gathered back to Jesus at His second coming and not before then.
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Old 10-29-2009, 09:19 PM
 
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There is no such thing as a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Jesus and Apostle Paul both make that clear.

Jesus tells us the proper order of events in Matthew 13 that the tares will be gathered before the wheat and the harvest is the END OF THE AGE.Christians[wheat] cannot be harvested before the lost[the tares].

Paul tells us in 2 THESS Chapter 2 that the son of perdition must sit in the temple and show himself to be God before we are gathered back to Christ. He is describing the appearance of the final Antichrist which happens DURING the Great Tribulation Period.

We are gathered back to Jesus at His second coming and not before then.

Matthew 13 concerning the tares and the wheat, is not about the rapture. At the rapture, believers are taken up off the earth, and unbelievers are left behind on the earth. At the second advent of Christ, at the end of the Tribulation, of which Matt.13 is referring to, it is the unbelievers who are taken off the earth and into Hades, and it is the believers who are left on the earth to go into the Millennial kingdom. It is known as the baptism of fire for the unbelievers who are cast into hades. These are two separate events. Research it.

2 Thessalonians 2 is stating that the apostasy-the falling away, must precede the second advent of Christ.

The rapture, the removal of the church, and with it, the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit is necessary before the antichrist can be revealed. That day, refers to the second advent which will not come until after the antichrist is revealed.

Here is the order of events:

(quote)
1) The working of the mystery of lawlessness under divine restraint which had already begun in the apostle's time (v.7) and which has been expanding throughout the Church Age. (2) The removal of that which restrains the mystery of lawlessness (vv.6-7. There are various views as to the identity of the restraining influence. The use of the masculine pronoun ''he'' indicates that it is a person. It seems evident that it is the Holy Spirit: (a) in the O.T. the Holy Spirit acts as a restrainer of iniquity (Gen. 6:3); (b) the restrainer is referred to by the use of both neuter and masculine genders (''what,'' v.6; ''he,'' v.7), as in Jn. 14:16-17; 16:12-13; concerning the coming of the Holy Spirit; and (c) it will be when the restrainer is ''taken out of the way'' that the man of sin will be revealed; this will be when the Church is translated and the Spirit's restraining ministry through it will cease. Observe, however, that it is not said that the restrainer will be ''taken away,'' but ''taken out of the way''; thus the Hoy Spirit will continue a divine activity to the end-time, though not as a restrainer of evil through the Church. (3) The manifestation of the lawless one, the man of sin, with the resulting apostasy (vv.3-4,8-10; Dan.7:8; 9:27; Mt.24:15; Rev.13:1-18). And (4) the return of Christ to the earth in glory, which will result in the overthrow of the man of sin and the establishment of the millennial kingdom (vv.8-10; Rev. 19:11-20:6).
(unquote)

(New Scofield Reference Bible, footnote for 2 Thess. 2:3; p.1294)
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Old 10-29-2009, 09:56 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
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You've still failed to come up with so important of a thing as even a single mention anywhere in Holy Scripture that there is a "seven years great tribulation." That phrase does not occur in the Bible.

You have been duped by such persons as Scofield to whom you refer. You can quote what he said; but, you cannot quote the Bible saying many things he teaches. He was an anti-supernaturalist, shutting up the door to the kingdom of God against people, lying against the Holy Ghost by saying He does not work miracles today and what miracles there are come from evil spirits. It should be obvious that such men defying God the Spirit are on the outside and everything seems a parable to them. They can only be working with the dead letter in their carnal minds, and subject to other spirits than that of God, seeing how they hate Him. God is abundantly demonstrating His nature and presence through the long history of the Eclessia and all the more so today.

How do you imagine to give a Bible definition of a word (rapture) that never appears in the Bible? Ridiculous!

Last edited by JamesMRohde; 10-29-2009 at 10:05 PM..
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Old 10-29-2009, 10:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
You've still failed to come up with so important of a thing as even a single mention anywhere in Holy Scripture that there is a "seven years great tribulation." That phrase does not occur in the Bible.

You have been duped by such persons as Scofield to whom you refer. You can quote what he said; but, you cannot quote the Bible saying many things he teaches. He was an anti-supernaturalist, shutting up the door to the kingdom of God against people, lying against the Holy Ghost by saying He does not work miracles today and what miracles there are come from evil spirits. It should be obvious that such men defying God the Spirit are on the outside and everything seems a parable to them. They can only be working with the dead letter, and subject to other spirits than that of God, seeing how they defy Him. God is abundantly demonstrating His nature and presence through the long history of the Eclessia and all the more so today.

How do you imagine to give a Bible definition of a word (rapture) that never appears in the Bible? Ridiculous!
This will go right over your head, but; one word of vocabulary saves a thousand words of explanation. The English word rapture, speaks of the event and concept that is revealed in passages such as 1 Thess. 4:11-17; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53; Phil 3:21; Titus 2:13; and John 14:1-3. Now you will ignore these, and without having any knowledge of the doctrines that are involved concerning the exit-resurrection of the Church, you will just continue to deny the reality of the blessed hope. It's your loss.

Your condemnation of C.I. Scofield speaks volumes.
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