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Old 10-30-2009, 04:35 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,119,759 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenderman View Post
The problem here is that you are looking at time with your perspective instead of God's timetable.

One day is as a 1000 years and a 1000 years is as 1 day to the Lord and the Lord is not slack concerning the promise of His return.
2 Peter 3:8-13

Understanding this concept means that Jesus was on the earth in the flesh body 2 days ago. This means the time is always near.
ROFL....That has got to be A #1....the best one I've heard yet.
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Old 10-30-2009, 04:40 PM
 
79 posts, read 72,012 times
Reputation: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Wasn't it God that tells both Ezekiel and John to seal or not seal? So when God says it is far off he means 400+ years but soon to him is 2000+?

You are saying that according to God there is a mathematical property.. The God property of time states.. 1 Day = 1000 years.. but don't you leave out the fact that Peter also says 1000 years = 1 day so the 1000 years in Revelation is really 1 day... Christ was really in the tomb for 3000 years to God... Do you see how you increase confusion by saying these things? Instead of what peter was trying to do which was reassure the people that God would come at the PERFECT time according to humans but according to God. He would harvest when the crop was ripe.. not before, nor after.

Furthermore.. you believe God says that 400+ years is really a short period when he says it is long, because 2000 is long when he says it is short.. Is God the author of confusion or is man the author of confusion?
Can you not read my post? I DID NOT leave out that a 1000 years is as 1 day.
God is not confused but it is possible that you could be.
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Old 10-30-2009, 06:28 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,391,622 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenderman View Post
Can you not read my post? I DID NOT leave out that a 1000 years is as 1 day.
God is not confused but it is possible that you could be.
Sorry as I read it over I realize that I skipped over my original thought..

My point was that if 1 day is 1000 years and 1000 years is 1 day then 1 day still equals 1 day to us.. so in the example you give I felt like you left out that the reciprocal is true, such that A=B so B=A and obviously A=A and B=B.. A and B don't change for us. For us 1000 years = 1000 years.

Peter's point was that they should not be discouraged because God will do what he will do when the time is right to do it. Trusting him not the passage of time...

And the meaning is that Peter was not creating a mathematical property as in every time God says 1000 years he means 1 day.. simply that time does not pass the same as we see it pass.

So when you quote Peter to assert that 400 is a long time to God yet 2000 is a short time... then I have to disagree. God was speaking to us so that if he said 400 years is a long time away so seal the prophecy he did not lie.. that is nearly 8 generations. But when he says Jesus will come quickly and don't seal it up then we cannot possibly say 2000 years or 75 generations is quickly.. that would be calling God a liar or a deceiver or in the very least the author of confusion.

I doubt that you would do that purposely.
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Old 10-30-2009, 06:55 PM
 
79 posts, read 72,012 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Sorry as I read it over I realize that I skipped over my original thought..

My point was that if 1 day is 1000 years and 1000 years is 1 day then 1 day still equals 1 day to us.. so in the example you give I felt like you left out that the reciprocal is true, such that A=B so B=A and obviously A=A and B=B.. A and B don't change for us. For us 1000 years = 1000 years.

Peter's point was that they should not be discouraged because God will do what he will do when the time is right to do it. Trusting him not the passage of time...

And the meaning is that Peter was not creating a mathematical property as in every time God says 1000 years he means 1 day.. simply that time does not pass the same as we see it pass.

So when you quote Peter to assert that 400 is a long time to God yet 2000 is a short time... then I have to disagree. God was speaking to us so that if he said 400 years is a long time away so seal the prophecy he did not lie.. that is nearly 8 generations. But when he says Jesus will come quickly and don't seal it up then we cannot possibly say 2000 years or 75 generations is quickly.. that would be calling God a liar or a deceiver or in the very least the author of confusion.

I doubt that you would do that purposely.
Whether it is 400 years or 40,000 years it is quickly because eternity is infinite.Peter's point is that time is infinite with GOD.
You still are thinking in a human mindset to focus on 8 generations or 75 generations being a short or long period of time.
I never called GOD a liar because His reference to 400 years is for man.
It is not confusing at all for me.

Back to the original thread: There is no pre-tribulation rapture as we are gathered to Christ at His second coming.
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Old 10-30-2009, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,391,622 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenderman View Post
Whether it is 400 years or 40,000 years it is quickly because eternity is infinite.Peter's point is that time is infinite with GOD.
You still are thinking in a human mindset to focus on 8 generations or 75 generations being a short or long period of time.
I never called GOD a liar because His reference to 400 years is for man.
It is not confusing at all for me.
Let me put it in elementary terms...

GOD said it is far off.. seal the prophecy. That was a span of 400 years from the seal to Christ.

GOD said it is near/quickly/soon... don't seal the prophecy.. That was a span of 2000 years.

You are saying that God told a human than 400 years is a long time and 2000 is a short time.

That is God lying to a human. He didn't say that to me it is a long time and to you it is a short time... Shall I post the verses?

God knew exactly when it would happen.. 400 years from then, a long time in the future to a man.

God knew exactly when it would happen... shortly/quickly/soon... yet you say it is 2000 years in the future? So God defines the human 2000 years as short and the human 400 years as long? That makes no sense.

There is no passage of time to God so years months short time long time ... he doesn't speak them to himself but to HUMANS. The sealed and unsealed prophecy was FOR HUMANS not GOD. It was sealed because they did not need it until later. It was left UNSEALED because they needed it soon.
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Old 10-30-2009, 08:53 PM
 
79 posts, read 72,012 times
Reputation: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Let me put it in elementary terms...

GOD said it is far off.. seal the prophecy. That was a span of 400 years from the seal to Christ.

GOD said it is near/quickly/soon... don't seal the prophecy.. That was a span of 2000 years.

You are saying that God told a human than 400 years is a long time and 2000 is a short time.

That is God lying to a human. He didn't say that to me it is a long time and to you it is a short time... Shall I post the verses?

God knew exactly when it would happen.. 400 years from then, a long time in the future to a man.

God knew exactly when it would happen... shortly/quickly/soon... yet you say it is 2000 years in the future? So God defines the human 2000 years as short and the human 400 years as long? That makes no sense.

There is no passage of time to God so years months short time long time ... he doesn't speak them to himself but to HUMANS. The sealed and unsealed prophecy was FOR HUMANS not GOD. It was sealed because they did not need it until later. It was left UNSEALED because they needed it soon.
The book of Revelation that you refer to concerning the Apostle John is a not just a future prophecy but a book of the past-present-future. It covers the total span of time not just future events. You keep getting hung up on this 2000 years thing. Many things in Revelation have already happened. Jesus Himself stated that He is "He who was, and Is, and Is yet to come." John's prophecy is 3 dimensional. You want to avoid discussing the false doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture by chasing rabbits.

Last edited by Fenderman; 10-30-2009 at 09:08 PM..
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Old 10-30-2009, 09:20 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,391,622 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenderman View Post
2000 years as short time and 400 years as a long time makes PERFECT sense to me.What part of time do you not understand ? 400 years compared to 70 years is a long time. 2000 years compared to eternity is a very short time.


But the point is that the verse says "The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future." Daniel 8:26

The vision is seen in 460 BCE/BC and is sealed to keep it secret because it is many years in the future.

Would you agree that this verse speaks of the same thing as those in Revelation? Yet Daniel is told that it can remain a secret because it is far in the future. Are we on the same page?

Revelation says: 22:10 Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near."

So you see that one is far away and one is near. The one that is near must pertain to that generation for it is NOT to remain a secret because it is NEAR. He will come quickly.

You try to argue that 2000 years is quickly or near but that is not what God says.. notice the wording is similar, what they talk about is the same, and yet then it was in the distant future and by John's time it was NEAR...

Perhaps I am explaining it incoherently but I cannot see how you think that 400 years is distant future when compared with 2000 years...

That makes no sense.. There is an urgency in leaving the prophecy unsealed.

You ascribe human thought to God because you say he said near yet it is far away to us. You are making his words mean something else to fit your eschatological view.

Now if John wrote from Patmos in 67-68 AD and the prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD then it was indeed near.. much nearer than the span from 460 BC to 70 AD...

I guess I can't explain it any further so I must just trust that others will see it and say.. hmmmm that is interesting so they can study it for themselves.
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Old 10-30-2009, 09:24 PM
 
79 posts, read 72,012 times
Reputation: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Wasn't it God that tells both Ezekiel and John to seal or not seal? So when God says it is far off he means 400+ years but soon to him is 2000+?

You are saying that according to God there is a mathematical property.. The God property of time states.. 1 Day = 1000 years.. but don't you leave out the fact that Peter also says 1000 years = 1 day so the 1000 years in Revelation is really 1 day... Christ was really in the tomb for 3000 years to God... Do you see how you increase confusion by saying these things? Instead of what peter was trying to do which was reassure the people that God would come at the PERFECT time according to humans but according to God. He would harvest when the crop was ripe.. not before, nor after.

Furthermore.. you believe God says that 400+ years is really a short period when he says it is long, because 2000 is long when he says it is short.. Is God the author of confusion or is man the author of confusion?
I'm slow but finally on to you now. You take someones posting and twist it to make it look wrong compared to what you believe. Do not put words into my mouth and I'm finished addressing this foolishness of yours.
You need to spend more time defending what you believe instead of misrepresenting what others believe.
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Old 10-30-2009, 09:26 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 3,488,585 times
Reputation: 241
I don't do Bible math..
But that is all I see people willing to do here.

Numbers, oh how we love our numbers.....

I avoid all forms of bible math because it always leads to error.
You start out fine, just taking down a few verses that have a number or two listed in their text.
Then you start to place meanings to the numbers....Ah, now you start to edit the way the numbers add up so it comes to a date that is in the future, because it would be silly to add up to a date that has passed.

Soon you talk yourself into believing that you ability to do math has unlocked a hidden understanding...
You have found the key!

Well lucky you!....

But in the end, the date you came up with will pass.....
Not that the Bible was wrong, but your skills with crossing mathematics with biblical interpretation sure were...

and do you learn form this?
Oh yes, you learn that it was just because you forgot to add some other numbers to you total.....

and off we all go again....
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Old 10-30-2009, 09:54 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,391,622 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenderman View Post
The book of Revelation that you refer to concerning the Apostle John is a not just a future prophecy but a book of the past-present-future. It covers the total span of time not just future events. You keep getting hung up on this 2000 years thing. Many things in Revelation have already happened. Jesus Himself stated that He is "He who was, and Is, and Is yet to come." John's prophecy is 3 dimensional. You want to avoid discussing the false doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture by chasing rabbits.
There are no rabbits.. you create a span and gaps to fit your view.. there are no gaps or any span. The prophecy was not given just for the fun of it. It was given for a purpose..

You seem to think that since you believe it pertains to that "lucky" generation who happens to be alive then it has no immediate purpose but to the 1st century Christians it was all too real and urgent.

The Jews revolted several times and persecution was rampant. Think about it..

Here is an excerpt from the study of Josephus:
c. Gaius (Caius/Caligula): Caius ruled as emperor from A. D. 37-41 during the fledgling years of the church—a church which was still basically comprised of Jews. During his reign he sent Petronius to invade Judea and erect a statue of Caesar in the Temple. If the Jews were unwilling, Petronius was to conquer them by war and then do erect the statue (Ant. 18. 2, ff.). The Jews said they would rather die than allow Caesar opportunity to place a statue of himself in their Temple. Their response is most noble and clearly demonstrates that they were still clinging to the Temple and their traditions in spite of the coming of Christ and the abrogation of the Law. One wonders how the Christians in Jerusalem, many of whom appear to have remained connected to the Temple for some time (cf. Acts 3 and Peter and John going to the Temple to pray) would have responded to this in the light of having many unsaved family members. Would they have given their lives for the Temple? Were they viewed as traitors if they decided not to help due to their new theological convictions? In any event, this incident illumines our understanding of the conditions and problems facing the Jews and the church in its early days. On a theological note, perhaps God wanted to use the situation to further separate the church from unbelieving Judaism. The destruction of the Temple by Titus some 30 years later seems to indicate that He had set the nation aside for a time and had begun to work through the church (cf. Romans 9-11; written around A.D. 57/58). Josephus’ Writings and Their Relation to the New Testament | Bible.org | Home of NET Bible on-line, Bible Study tools, Free Bible

Josephus may not have been wholly accurate in some instances but we can see the turmoil during that time..To me that is the time that was ripe for harvest.. to you it seems that is not.

*shrugs* well if you can't get the point of the sealed and unsealed prophecy then I suppose this post is just as futile.
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