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You reject the passages that say that the church is raptured because you don't approve of the way it's stated. I Thess. 4:13-17; John 14:1-3. for example. That is your problem. Not the Bibles.
I went into depth examining some passages to which you refer. That is hardly rejecting them. I only used the same resources you would use if you studied the same verses. You don't read my posts do you?
p.19, post #189 examines I Co 15:52.
p.20, post #199 gives the sense of 1 Co 15:51-52 as an explanatory paraphrase.
p.21, post #203 examines 1 Th 4:17.
To search out the original language with online concordances and lexicons , seeing how a word is used elsewhere in Scripture is all I did. That is what I wrote and you say I'm thereby rejecting passages WHERE THE RAPTURE IS MENTIONED?! To the point, you are lying twice. I reiterated here how I searched out some relevant passages. 2.) There is no use of the word "rapture" in the Bible anywhere, certainly not those passages. You continue to favor the tradition of men's words that renders the Word of God inoperative while you lie about me, what I believe, and the work I do in writing up some simple studies of words pertinant to what we are discussing.
I'm not sure what it is you think you are saying. But John was not raptured. The rapture refers to the resurrection of the Church. No one other than Christ has thus far been resurrected. The rapture or resurrection is what terminates the Church-age. John had a vision, a revelation, of things that were to come during the Tribulation. That are to come.
This response explains a lot now and what you really understand about the book of Revelation.
I went into depth examining some passages to which you refer. That is hardly rejecting them. I only used the same resources you would use if you studied the same verses. You don't read my posts do you?
p.19, post #189 examines I Co 15:52.
p.20, post #199 gives the sense of 1 Co 15:51-52 as an explanatory paraphrase.
p.21, post #203 examines 1 Th 4:17.
To search out the original language with online concordances and lexicons , seeing how a word is used elsewhere in Scripture is all I did. That is what I wrote and you say I'm thereby rejecting passages WHERE THE RAPTURE IS MENTIONED?! To the point, you are lying twice. I reiterated here how I searched out some relevant passages. 2.) There is no use of the word "rapture" in the Bible anywhere, certainly not those passages. You continue to favor the tradition of men's words that renders the Word of God inoperative while you lie about me, what I believe, and the work I do in writing up some simple studies of words pertinant to what we are discussing.
Why can't you get it through your head, that the English word 'rapture' isn't going to be found in the Bible which was written in Greek and Hebrew. I gave you the Greek word for what has been translated rapture and you reject it as well, because you have a problem with the rapture. You have a problem with the harpazo. There's your rapture. The 'harpazo', the 'harpageEsometha.' And something about the very concept just rubs you the wrong way. So just deny it, and maybe it will go away. That's how you rationalize it.
And no, I don't read your posts because you don't know what you are talking about.
Why can't you get it through your head, that the English word 'rapture' isn't going to be found in the Bible which was written in Greek and Hebrew. I gave you the Greek word for what has been translated rapture and you reject it as well, because you have a problem with the rapture. You have a problem with the harpazo. There's your rapture. The 'harpazo', the 'harpageEsometha.' And something about the very concept just rubs you the wrong way. So just deny it, and maybe it will go away. That's how you rationalize it.
Since you don't read what I've been posting it is more understandable why you are so wrong about me while being bullheaded about it. As the Proverb says, "He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." (Proverbs 18:11, AV) Rapture is not only not in Greek, it isn't in English. I already examined harpazo in a way that would have cleared up your ignorance. Of course you didn't read it so you can't discuss it with me. You just keep repeating your mantra. "A fool does not find joy in understanding, but only in expressing his own opinion." (Proverbs 18:2, GW) Many non-Scriptural things have been thrown into the "Rapture" category that do not in any way represent the Biblical harpazo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
And no, I don't read your posts because you don't know what you are talking about.
"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." (Proverbs 18:11, AV) You don't know what I'm talking about because you don't read my posts. No wonder your comments are so disconnected.
Jesus says: "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word." (John 8:43, AV) Something peculiar about deception I learned long ago from these verses in this post is that those who are deceived do not listen.
"We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error." (1 John 4:6, AV) It's clear that by not listening you don't learn, so, what you are missing cannot be added and what you are in error about cannot be corrected. You are what Scripture calls: "Wise in your own conceits;" as in, "Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him." (Proverbs 26:12, AV)
Since you don't read what I've been posting it is more understandable why you are so wrong about me while being bullheaded about it. As the Proverb says, "He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." (Proverbs 18:11, AV) Rapture is not only not in Greek, it isn't in English. I already examined harpazo in a way that would have cleared up your ignorance. Of course you didn't read it so you can't discuss it with me. You just keep repeating your mantra. "A fool does not find joy in understanding, but only in expressing his own opinion." (Proverbs 18:2, GW) Many non-Scriptural things have been thrown into the "Rapture" category that do not in any way represent the Biblical harpazo.
Jesus says: "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word." (John 8:43, AV) Something peculiar about deception I learned long ago from these verses in this post is that those who are deceived do not listen.
"We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error." (1 John 4:6, AV) It's clear that by not listening you don't learn, so, what you are missing cannot be added and what you are in error about cannot be corrected. You are what Scripture calls: "Wise in your own conceits;" as in, "Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him." (Proverbs 26:12, AV)
Wish I could rep ya.. Mike doesn't read what I write either.. *shrugs shoulders* Yet he seems to take pride in responding to posts he doesn't read...
Since you don't read what I've been posting it is more understandable why you are so wrong about me while being bullheaded about it. As the Proverb says, "He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." (Proverbs 18:11, AV) Rapture is not only not in Greek, it isn't in English. I already examined harpazo in a way that would have cleared up your ignorance. Of course you didn't read it so you can't discuss it with me. You just keep repeating your mantra. "A fool does not find joy in understanding, but only in expressing his own opinion." (Proverbs 18:2, GW) Many non-Scriptural things have been thrown into the "Rapture" category that do not in any way represent the Biblical harpazo.
"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." (Proverbs 18:11, AV) You don't know what I'm talking about because you don't read my posts. No wonder your comments are so disconnected.
Jesus says: "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word." (John 8:43, AV) Something peculiar about deception I learned long ago from these verses in this post is that those who are deceived do not listen.
"We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error." (1 John 4:6, AV) It's clear that by not listening you don't learn, so, what you are missing cannot be added and what you are in error about cannot be corrected. You are what Scripture calls: "Wise in your own conceits;" as in, "Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him." (Proverbs 26:12, AV)
Harpazo = caught up = Rapture. Wait! Don't tell me. You still don't get it. I think that you never will.
Harpazo = caught up = Rapture. Wait! Don't tell me. You still don't get it. I think that you never will.
Actually you are right about one thing.. Harpazo does mean to seize, catch up, snatch away by force... while rapture is defined as:
(Noah Webster's New International Dictionary of the English Language)
1. (n.) A seizing by violence; a hurrying along; rapidity with violence.
2. (n.) The state or condition of being rapt, or carried away from one's self by agreeable excitement; violence of a pleasing passion; extreme joy or pleasure; ecstasy.
3. (n.) A spasm; a fit; a syncope; delirium.
4. (v. t.) To transport with excitement; to enrapture.
HOWEVER.. harpazo is also the root word (harp actually) for harpagmos which means robbery or to grasp by force.... which gives us a clearer picture of how harpazo should be used.. not as a bodily ascention as you use it but as the above definition of rapture by webster and without a fundy twist.
So I don't think any of us will ever GET it like you get it.. because what you GET is a figment of your imagination not the truth. So what you mean by the RAPTURE is not found in the bible in any form..
The wonderful thing is the fact that God's sure word is He will "forcibly seize" us and "possess as His own" our physical body to place it into fully inheriting in power all in the material realm that belongs to Jesus. It is called "the adoption, to wit, redemption of the body" and "the manifestation (not disappearance) of the sons of God." (Rm 8)
I don't believe the pre-trib rapture is abusive. Sure, people can abuse anything but that does not mean the truth is wrong because people abuse the truth.
Once the complement of the nations enters THEN all Israel shall be saved WHEN arriving out of Zion shall come the Rescuer (Romans 11:25,26). Between the time when we of the nations are taken out, the Jewish believers go through the great tribulation and then Christ comes back and rescues THEM. (Read Thassalonians too).
Gideon said, The pre-tribulation rapture is abusive, primarily because it pressures people to give more money and of their physical, emotional and spiritual energies to the church. Darby and Scofield profited greatly from this heresy they created. Churches still profit from it greatly, as they warn People to do all they can for the Jesus (the church), because he could come at any moment, since the ascention, they falsely have claimed for nearly 160 years or so. It was a fear tactic, used to motivate people to give of all there resouces, while they could, lest Jesus come to them as a thief; This is a lie also. For Jesus does not come to the believer as a theif. Darbyism is filled with lies that were designed to cause fear.
The thing we should fear, as described in II Thes 2 is following Darbyism, it has an eternally dangerous consequence that may go along with it for some.
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