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Old 11-24-2009, 05:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gideon7620 View Post
Gideon said,
But his point was this generation would not pass unil all these things be fulfilled. Let's face it, Pre-tribulationism is heresy and it was created by wicked men, as the illuminists, Darby, and Scofield. Fundamentalists can not deny the fact that Scofield and Darby were shisters, nothing more nothing less. Neither can they deny the fact that those whom vehemently guard these falacies as truths have deeply rooted issues also; that is pure bible with much doctrine and scripture to back that statement. It boils down to a heart matter. Jesus is not coming any time soon. I guarantee you he can not come at any moment.
Obviously "ALL" those things did not come to pass in that generation. Please go over the list of "ALL" the things that Christ lists and tell me exactly when each of those things came to pass.

Also, your attacks on Darby and Sofield do not help you one bit in a debate. Such biting attacks prove nothing.

As to the return of Christ, the only thing we have to have come to pass for His return is:

Rom 11:25-26 For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering." (26) And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob."

It may take thousands more years before the complement of the nations enters. Until then, Christ cannot come back.

The complement of the nations never took place in 70 A.D. I guarantee you that as I am testimony to being a believer of the nations.
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Old 11-24-2009, 05:29 PM
 
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The believers of the nations have a heavenly destiny while the believers of the circumcision have an earthly destiny:

Phi 3:20 For our realm* is inherent** in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ,
Phi 3:21 Who will transfigure the body of our humilation, to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself."

*realm is like a king's realm being England. Our territory or realm is not on the earth but in the heavens.
*inherrent means "belonging."

When we meet the Lord in their air, we don't remain in the air but we meet Him in the air and we go above into the heavens where Christ came out of.

1Th 4:17 Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord."

Then we are transported into the kingdom of the Son of His love:

Col 1:13 Who rescues us out of the jurisdiction of Darkness, and transports us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,

This is not a one-at-a-time happenning where as each christian dies they meet the Lord. Rather, it is an all or nothing one time event where ALL the believers of the nations who have died come out of their graves, meet those believers who are living and together, as one group, meet the Lord in the air.

This is not a Darby or Scofield thing but a Pauline doctrine.
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Old 11-24-2009, 05:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Obviously "ALL" those things did not come to pass in that generation. Please go over the list of "ALL" the things that Christ lists and tell me exactly when each of those things came to pass.

Also, your attacks on Darby and Sofield do not help you one bit in a debate. Such biting attacks prove nothing.

As to the return of Christ, the only thing we have to have come to pass for His return is:

Rom 11:25-26 For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering." (26) And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob."

It may take thousands more years before the complement of the nations enters. Until then, Christ cannot come back.

The complement of the nations never took place in 70 A.D. I guarantee you that as I am testimony to being a believer of the nations.

Gideon said many of the things that have occured have been occuring for 2,000 years up until verse 7 in Mathew 24 or there abouts. We are seeing an escalation of the signs now. SInce the reign of Adolf Hitler and the reformation of Israel as a nation in 1948 we have most likely entered the final generation; and this generation of time would not pass until the remaining thing be fulfilled. Read the blessed hope if you want more specifics; I have already commented on this and to great detail. Most assuredly we probably are now exiting the beginning of sorrows and entering completely foreign playing grounds now, where the situation is valatile and can change from day to day. I will still assure anyone and guarantee anyone that Jesus will not come any time soon; it is impossible. This would make him a liar if he did. Rather Darby, Scofield, the illuminist, and many church leaders are liars, waiting for something that is obviously not going to happen as they think necessary. They will get their Messiah alright and he will come right as the tribulation starts, but he will be a false Messiah, the antichrist, and son of peridition.


The Blessed Hope of the Believers

Last edited by Gideon7620; 11-24-2009 at 06:02 PM..
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Old 11-24-2009, 06:18 PM
 
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But Gideon, that's not good enough. Christ said ALL ALL ALL these things must occur

Mat 24:34 "Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by till all these things should be occurring."

The "may" and the "should" are little tip-offs.

Those things have not all happened.
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Old 11-24-2009, 06:42 PM
 
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
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Matthew 24 is about the destruction of Jerusalem - the final ending of the Jews as God's chosen people.

"" Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains ""

So a Christian in China that sees someone standing in Jerusalem has to flee to the mountains??? Clearly Jesus is speaking only to Jews in Jerusalem.

"" For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be ""

From a JEWISH prospective this was fulfilled with the DoJ.


Since the OP loves website links here is one refuting Rapturism
http://www.bible.ca/pre-flavius-josephus-70AD-Mt24-fulfilled.htm
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Old 11-24-2009, 10:03 PM
 
392 posts, read 470,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by censusdata View Post
Matthew 24 is about the destruction of Jerusalem - the final ending of the Jews as God's chosen people.

"" Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains ""

So a Christian in China that sees someone standing in Jerusalem has to flee to the mountains??? Clearly Jesus is speaking only to Jews in Jerusalem.

"" For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be ""

From a JEWISH prospective this was fulfilled with the DoJ.


Since the OP loves website links here is one refuting Rapturism
Josephus: The Wars Of The Jews; History of the Destruction Of Jerusalem

Gideon said Mathew 24 is about the consumation of the final age. It started in the time of apostles when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. It is the last time, as John wrote, "This is the last time. Ye have heard that the antichrist will come; there are many currnently amoung us." Even John realized that "the antichrist" had not come in his life, yet. The culmination of events progresses, the birth pains become more intensified as the "Day of the Lord" nears. Many prophecies and the most exciting and dramatic ones have yet to be fulfilled. The final ones will be the AOD, which has yet to occur. Another will be a worldwide campaign of slaughter against the saints, and those whom refuse to worship the image of the beast and his Mark, Digital Angel. Then when the tribulation comes to an end, the sun, moon and heavens will show the greatest fireworks display ever seen by man kind: to the saints it will be glorious, but to the lost it will be a horror show. Finally, the son of Man will appear coming with great clouds of witnesses and in great celestrial clouds, so big that the entire earth will see this event. His epiphany will confound many and cause them to think another sun has appeared. Clearly Jesus is speaking to the entire world or the entire church here, as he tells us nation would rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom. In revelatoin we see John writes to the seven churches about the second coming of Christ and he warns all to be ready lest they have their candlesticks removed. Every eye shall see him including they, the soldiers that pierced him. This can only mean, that since the Epiphany, apokolypcia, and paroucia of Christ mark the consumation of the age, the first resurrection (in which is the only first resurrection of all the righteous saints from down through the ages from Adam to the last martyr) that the Roman soldiers whom pierced him must have gotten saved. How do I know that? Simple for the ones that have pierced him to see him coming can only mean they are participants of the first resurrection, which is of all the righteous down through all the ages. They rise from the dead with all the other saints. Blessed and holy is he whom hath part in the first resurrection, over such the second death hath no power. The first resurrection transpires when Christ returns at the end of the GT.


13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before.

Clearly Jesus is speaking to humanity as a whole and not just Israel and the apostles; Woe to them that give suck in the winter, cold. Jerusalem is not cold as in the north or extreme south with their winters. There shall be tribulation in the world as never seen. We see Jesus is warning everyone, not just the ones in Jerusalem; that is only a portion of the warning. We see also the tribes of the earth Mourn. Finally, the angels gather the elect after the last or seventh trumpet is sounded from the four corners of the earth or from the four winds, hemespheres. This is a world wide event and campaign.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 11-24-2009 at 10:51 PM..
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Old 11-25-2009, 12:05 PM
 
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
The tribulation has not occurred yet of Christ's brethren. It lasts 3 1/2 years.

And this takes place immediately after the tribulation:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven,
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the
sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth
mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven
with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great
sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four
winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:29-31 KJV)

That never happened.
Eusebius, I dont think you realize how devastating your statement that "it never happened" is to the credibility of Jesus Christ. Jesus said it would happen "before that generation passed," and if it did not happen, it would make Christ a false prophet. Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not see death, till they see the Son of man COMING IN HIS KINGDOM." (Matt.16:28)
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Old 11-25-2009, 11:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeapostle View Post
Eusebius, I dont think you realize how devastating your statement that "it never happened" is to the credibility of Jesus Christ. Jesus said it would happen "before that generation passed," and if it did not happen, it would make Christ a false prophet. Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not see death, till they see the Son of man COMING IN HIS KINGDOM." (Matt.16:28)
Gideon said,
Those whom will not taste death until Jesus comes at the end of the GT are demons. Demons have been here and remain here. They just move from host to host. Have you heard the expression, history repeats itself? It certainly does, because demons repeat the same garbage from generation to generation. Adolf Hitler murdered millions of Jews. The antichrist will soon come to murder millions of Jews and Saints, perhaps billions. This is why Jesus said there be some here whom shall not tast of death until they see the son of man coming in His Kingdom, or the Kingdom upon earth. He proves that as he states when The Son of Man Shall come in the Glory of His Father with His angels and then shall he reward everyman according to their works. He returns to cast the demons into the Lake of Fire, and that is the ultimate death for them. These are those that do not tast of death until thousands of years later, to whom is reserved the midst of darkness forever. He was not speaking of bodily death, but spiritual death the the demons that followed Satan at his fall. When Jesus ran the swine off the cliff and into the ocean, they legion merely left the swine and went else where. They are still here and shall not tast death until Jesus returns to destroy them in the Lake of Fire, which burneth with brimestone forever and ever.

27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

28Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here (Those possessed with demons), which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

King James Version (KJV)

It is crucial not to forget the surrounding verses, lest we take this out of context, clearly Jesus is speaking of his second coming, and only second coming. There are not two parts to it, nor was he making reference to the time frame upon which he spent on earth as the God man. He was refering to the end of the world, when he returns with his mighty angels, taking vengeance on them that obey not the Gospel, (Doctrines and teachings of Christ, the desciples, and apostles). For such, there were demons, which will not taste of death until the see the son of man coming in great power and glory. The antichrist is only one example of the demons that shall be destroyed and taste of death when the son of man returns with his mighty angels, to take possession of his church, the earth, and the kingdom.



8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

The generation not passing has nothing to do with the destruction of Jerusalem; take note to its context. It is making reference to the generation of people that begin to see the final signs of the age. The final signs are marked the the fig tree nation, Israel being reformed. This happened in 1948; strangely we saw the worst antichrist in History rise shortly before that, Adolf Hitler. This generation has nothing to do with the generation of the desciples but it is marked by the fig tree parable and it culminates the final signs of the age, which have not occured yet, but are on schedule to occur soon.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 11-25-2009 at 11:56 PM..
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Old 11-26-2009, 12:41 AM
 
150 posts, read 259,887 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by censusdata View Post
Matthew 24 is about the destruction of Jerusalem - the final ending of the Jews as God's chosen people.

"" Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains ""

So a Christian in China that sees someone standing in Jerusalem has to flee to the mountains??? Clearly Jesus is speaking only to Jews in Jerusalem.

"" For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be ""

From a JEWISH prospective this was fulfilled with the DoJ.


Since the OP loves website links here is one refuting Rapturism
http://www.bible.ca/pre-flavius-josephus-70AD-Mt24-fulfilled.htm
Matthew 24:3 Jesus is asked by the disciples what will be the sign of your coming, and the end of the age? [paraphrased]

Matthew 24 is for ALL believers.

There is neither Jew or Greek, male or female,as we are One in Christ Jesus.

With your logic of Matthew 24 applied to Matthew 28:16-20 that must mean that the "great commission" only applies to the eleven disciples who were Jews.
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Old 11-26-2009, 07:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riceweevil View Post
Matthew 24:3 Jesus is asked by the disciples what will be the sign of your coming, and the end of the age? [paraphrased]

Matthew 24 is for ALL believers.

There is neither Jew or Greek, male or female,as we are One in Christ Jesus.

With your logic of Matthew 24 applied to Matthew 28:16-20 that must mean that the "great commission" only applies to the eleven disciples who were Jews.
Gideon said,

I fully agree. Pre-tribulationism is a doctrine of demons. Those who cannot see the light in this very obvious heresy may never be able to see the light as describe in II Thes 2, very clearly. Mathew 24 is applicable to all true believers from down throughout the ages. It has always been by faith and grace that man has found favor in God's sight. Romans 11 clearly tells us that the church was grafted into the house of Israel by their disbelief in the Messiah arrival some 2,000 years ago. Through having jealousy for the church's position with God, they will be re-grafted into the family tree, buy doctrine of the church age, when the Great Tribulation strike. They will realize the churches presentation of Christ as the suffering Messiah is accurate as are all of the prophesies contained in the NT. The Great Tribulation will awaken them, because they have always been taught not to worship idols and will refuse to worship the idol the antichrist and false prophet will place before them, the image of the beast and mark.

II Thes 1 clearly tells us that the church will be here until The Day of the Lord, which arrives at the end of the Great Tribulation. We also see the church will suffer persecution and troubles from the wicked until The Day of the Lord. Darbyism is a demonic doctrine that is not found in scripture. It is heretical in nature and destructive to those whom worship it. There is no light way to deal with this obvious heresy whom Scofield, a born loser, propogated for illuminists, the Jesuits, Darby, and the NWO.


2 Thessalonians 1 (King James Version)


2 Thessalonians 1


1Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in th


The Obvious Error of Pre-Tribulationism In I Thes 1
The Obvious Misrepresentation of Words By Pretrbulationists

Gideon said, here in this chapter we see a very obvious flop-up of words by the pre-trib camp. Here Paul tells the believers that their faith has grown exceedingly. We know how faith comes about: first we know that faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God. I believe God applies that individually and differently in our lives but with the same basic technique. What may build faith in me may seem unacceptable to others; I am not saying that reading the word of God does not do this, but rather where and how we read the word may differ from person to person. God has given each a master plan for their lives to build one's faith. We need be careful in being judgmental of others lives and how God works individually with people; God speaks to man or a woman individually. So tribulation works patience and hope. If we have trouble or tribulations this is good as we have a need to developed hope in order to overcome the troubles or tribulation. As God speaks and delivers us from whatever trouble we may encounter, we gain faith in God to carry us through anything. Hence tribulation brought on by Satan is a good thing God allows to build our faith.

Yet the pre-tribulation notion or reasoning is the opposite of this philosophy; it carries and escapist ideology with it. They think we are to escape Satan's wrath, troubles, and persecution and conclude falsely that it is God's wrath. Further, they have misrepresented it and titled it as such. This chapter 1 or II Thessalonians teaches us the opposite of what they proclaim as truth, as does the entire Bible. God allows the trials and tribulation in our lives to build stronger soldiers for his command, soldiers that will not be intimidated by Satan's tribulations or his wrath he brings against those that love God. The escapist mentality is seen in a wishful, pre-tribulation rapture, not seen in scripture.

Why does Paul tell them their faith has grown exceedingly? The answer is simple. Paul knows they have suffered tribulation and he knows and sees the end result of that tribulation they suffer. Paul also knows that the end result of that is spiritual growth. He wrote about it regularly to teach us. So how in the world can they come up with the opposite of what is taught in scripture, through and through. The answer is found in II Thes 2; they have a love for unrighteousness in some cases or have been deceived. Some will find truth eventually as the Spirit will bear truth to them; others will have a love for error, inevitably and will never find the truth. Paul has clearly told us this in II Thes 2 if you recall.

As we will see, not only does this chapter 1 of II Thes further debunk the pre-tribulation heresy, but it also gives much hope to the saint suffering troubles and persecutions from its perpitrators. God does not lie, and we will see how they have taken this chapter also way out of context. Unto the saint, the trouble, though painful, are good. We will now cover the remaining portion of this chapter in detail.


Romans 5
3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

James 1

3Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Galatians 5

6b but faith which worketh by love.





3We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in t

Pre-tribulationists Obvious Errors in Translation of Words

Gideon said,
Beginning in verse 4 we see thilpis the Greek word for tribulation. It means an experience that tests one's endurance, patience and faith. The suffering God allows the church to go through is allowed by God to test them of their endurance, patience and faith. Paul glories or speaks proudly of the church of Thessalonica in all the other churches because he is admiring their faith which is demonstrated by their endurance in tribulations and persecutions. That is a precisely what verse 4 says.

Verse 5 tells us that God's allowance of these troubles (persecutions and tribulations) is a manifested token of God's righteous Judgment that shall come against the ungodly bringing this trouble, the persecution to the church. He further tells us that the endurance of this affliction is a manifestation of their salvation. In other words, since they can endure it; it is proof they are saved. In opposite retrospect, had they not endured, they obviously are not part of God's kingdom. Do not misunderstand these statements; what I am not saying is that this endurance of tribulation saves them, but rather it is proof they are saved. The unsaved simply will not endure. This becomes clearer in the following verses.

In verse 6 we see that God will recompense judgment on those that trouble the church. He will recompense tribulation on our persecutor. The timing of the recompense brought against our enemies is crucial to the post-tribulation fact. Further the time frame the church is to endure the tribulation is more proof of the post-tribulation fact as we will see.

In verse seven we see the opposite of what is taught by pre-tribulationists to be true. The rest from persecution does not occur until the Lord Jesus is revealed. Yet they, the pre-tribulationists claim it comes seven years earlier in a secret, hidden, nowhere mentioned in scripture rapture that flies them away. Now reading this by itself does not strike the meaning so strongly, until the word revealed is translated. The word revealed comes from the Greek word apokolypcia. The word, "Apocalypse," is the disclosure and "revelation of Christ when he appears in the fullness of his power". This is very obviously the word being used. It snuffs out the claim to a pre-tribulation return of Christ here. Yet, they claim it is here in II Thes 1. In other word, while the meanings of the words here tells us Jesus is making his disclosure and revelation of power with his apokolypcia here; the pre-tribulationists camps continue to falsely claim this is a secret mysterious coming no one knows about and that none will see. Here we see the same event about to occur in Revelation 11.

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


We see verses 8 and 9 telling us the same things also. There is absolutely nothing secret about Jesus coming back with angels in flaming fire, taking vengeance on those that trouble us until the time of his revelation; the vengeance is poured out in flaming fire on those that obeyed not the Gospel of his Word; who also know not God or simply are not his children. The most important thing to notice is the rest from the persecution and troubles does not occur until Jesus is revealed or until his apokolypcia,which occurs at the end of the GT. This debunks the pretribulation rapture entirely.

This is very obviously the wrath of God. God's wrath comes at the end of the GT and not during. The pretribulation camp makes a gross error in calling Satan's wrath which occurs during the tribulation, God's wrath, which occurs at the end of the GT. Satan and his minions persecuting the church does not constitute the wrath of God. God's wrath comes when Jesus is revealed, in flaming fire taking vengeance on the churches enemies, as depicted in verses 8 and 9.

These that trouble us until the end of the GT, shall be punishes with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and the Glory of his power. The Glory of this power is the power of the resurrection. While we receive rest in the resurrection of his likeness, they the wicked shall be punished in the Lake of fire. On that day Christ shall be glorified because we believed everything Paul wrote to us. We are glorified as we are transformed into his likeness on that day. It is that simple. Why do they complicate this so much. THe answer is they refuse to receive the love of the truth. They have pleasure in unrighteousness or they have pleasure in doctrinal errors. Some of these are not of us and time will reveal that.

Now let's see more about the coming of Jesus, in the terminology. Remember we mentioned in II Thes 2 that his coming, or Parousia, meant his arrival. NOW Let’s cover another word to sort of wrap up II Thes 1 and 2. The other word is epiphany. We see the word coming in the Greek can also represent his epiphany or brilliant Shekinah, as the sun shines... This word epiphany is seen in the end of the chapter in verse 8.


1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) or arrival of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him; this verse merely means his arrival while our gathering together unto him is the resurrection of the dead and translation of the living to meet the Lord in the air.

In verse 8 we see the word epiphany being used. What is says is that the brilliant Shekinah or sun like glow of Christ returning or of his coming (epiphany) will destroy Satan. This is the blazing fire we see in II Thes 1 that destroys the wicked one, and wicked ones whom follow Satan and his lies. In other words it is the same event being described with different details. God does this often throughout scripture. Pre-tribulationism has made a great error in calling the two descriptions of the obvious same event two separate events. So there is nothing secret or hidden with Jesus returning as in fire to destroy his enemies. That is a very powerful statement. We must remember our God is a consuming fire that hates evil, sin, and evil doers with a consuming passion. Deu 4:24 says, For the LORD thy God [is] a consuming fire, [even] a jealous God.

Here are both descriptions of the same event being describe with different details. Here we see angels also, while in II Thes 2 we are only told his fire like epiphany will destroy Satan.
The same event in II Thes 1
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (epiphany).

Last edited by Gideon7620; 11-26-2009 at 08:00 AM..
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