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Old 11-27-2009, 05:42 AM
 
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There is no such thing as a Pre-Tribulation "rapture" in the Bible.
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Old 11-27-2009, 07:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jeapostle View Post
FOR YET A LITTLE WILE, AND HE THAT SHALL COME WILL COME, AND WILL NOT TARRY (Heb.10:37)

Christ has NOT TARRIED for TWO THOUSAND YEARS! He Came!!
If Jesus already came how come no one saw Him?

If Jesus already came, how come John, when writing Revelation in 93 A.D. was still looking forward to the return of Christ?

Obviously your understanding of "this generation" is flawed.
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Old 11-27-2009, 08:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jeapostle View Post
You miss my point, Jesus said it would happen before THAT GENERATION PASSED. The TRIBULATION of those days was the horrible time of distress that the Jews suffered at the hands of the Romans. All those things did happen. Jesus came on the clouds of heaven in judgment against apostate Israel, and there were some in that generation that did not taste death until they saw him come into his kingdom. How can you place the TRIBULATION of those days two thousand years removed from their context.

The kingdom was "at hand" in the First Century. The Kingdom did come, and all of that generation did not pass. If the kingdom has not yet come, then there must be some in that generation still alive
Gideon said you have missed the Bible's point. It said, in John writings, this is the last time. He then tells us we have heard the antichrist will come; currently there are many. They went out from us that they might be revealed.The last time started after Jesus ascended. It continues even until now. Since Christ left wars, rumors of wars, plagues, and starvation have occurred in diverse places. Now they have escalated in our time. We have seen the fig tree nation reborn, Israel; this is the parable Jesus has tied to the generation that would not pass until all the remaining things occur. The beginning of sorrows has ended we are now in verse 9 or 10; things will culminate to an end now.

Those whom will not taste of death until Jesus returns are the demons that continue to replague man, as history repeats itself with their demonic influences. Jesus was not speaking of people bodily being here two thousand years later when he returns. He was speakng of the second death the demons would experience at His glorious return. These are the only ones that will see death at that time. We will see life eternal as we are changed in the twinkling of an eye.
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Old 11-27-2009, 08:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jeapostle View Post



If the kingdom did not come, How was it "at Hand", and what do you do with what Jesus said, "VERILY, I SAY UNTO YOU, THERE BE SOME STANDING HERE, WHICH SHALL NOT TASTE DEATH, TILL THEY SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN HIS KINGDOM." (Matt.16:28)

ARE YOU KIDDING ME Jesus said they would see the kingdom come before some tasted death, and you say the kingdom DID NOT COME

Gideon said, the kingdom of God is still at hand and within us. The kingdom of God is always within us. Do'nt you get it when Jesus returns, he transforms us to his likeness and begins His reign on earth with us. This is why we are the kingdom and have the kingdom. The antichrist will wage war against the saints and kill many of us. However, when Christ returns the antichrist is destroyed with His brightness, as are all the demons; these are those that will not taste of death until he returns. We are the ones that live and reign on earth. We are transformed to His likeness and take possession of the earth's kingdoms. We shall rule and reign with Christ. We already have the kingdom within us; we have just not been immortalized yet. So we can surmise the kingdom is partially in heaven with all the dead saints, and partially on earth with the living saints. They will culminate together with the return of Christ and the immortalization of the Bride of Christ when he returns to join his Bride in Holy eternal matrimony

21I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 11-27-2009 at 08:53 AM..
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Old 11-27-2009, 08:57 AM
 
392 posts, read 470,201 times
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Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
If Jesus already came how come no one saw Him?

If Jesus already came, how come John, when writing Revelation in 93 A.D. was still looking forward to the return of Christ?

Obviously your understanding of "this generation" is flawed.

Gideon said,

Great point, I would like for everyone to ask themselves whom are they that pierced Christ with the Sword in his side? I will give you a hint, they are dead bodily now. Even they shall see Christ when he returns. How is that? This is a miraculous verse.


5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty
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Old 11-27-2009, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,406,978 times
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Originally Posted by Gideon7620 View Post
Gideon said,

Great point, I would like for everyone to ask themselves whom are they that pierced Christ with the Sword in his side? I will give you a hint, they are dead bodily now. Even they shall see Christ when he returns. How is that? This is a miraculous verse.


5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty
This refutation would be fine except that Jesus himself told those he was speaking to that their generation would not pass away before he came. Also in Rev.1 we see that revelation has to do with the servants of God of which John is one of them.. so I think you are taking one verse and overriding other verses that state it would happen within their generation.

Furthermore if you really search the NT you will see that salvation is brought into reality when Christ comes back.. so do you HOPE for your salvation as the apostles did or do you HAVE salvation?
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Old 11-27-2009, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
If Jesus already came how come no one saw Him?

If Jesus already came, how come John, when writing Revelation in 93 A.D. was still looking forward to the return of Christ?

Obviously your understanding of "this generation" is flawed.
Think about this for a second. We know that around 30 AD John was around Christ's age... say 30 to make it easy. So how old was John when he wrote the book of revelation? 93? Really? When the life expectancy back then was maybe 50-60? Even if he wrote it in 68 as some say.. he would have surpassed the life expectancy.. especially when we see that christians were being martyred left and right back then...

So if you think John wrote this book in 93.. It seems to me to be a stretch that a 93 year old man would be imprisoned and still living...still writing...
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:43 PM
 
392 posts, read 470,201 times
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Think about this for a second. We know that around 30 AD John was around Christ's age... say 30 to make it easy. So how old was John when he wrote the book of revelation? 93? Really? When the life expectancy back then was maybe 50-60? Even if he wrote it in 68 as some say.. he would have surpassed the life expectancy.. especially when we see that christians were being martyred left and right back then...

So if you think John wrote this book in 93.. It seems to me to be a stretch that a 93 year old man would be imprisoned and still living...still writing...
Gideon says History and tradition have it that John was on the Isle of Patmos, not imprisoned, but rather in a monastery typesetting, writing the book of Revelation at very ripe age, and sheltered setting. True the average life expectancy was about 55 in that day and age, but it had nothing to do with medicine. People lived shorter lives than simply because they were more exposed to the elements. John was protected by God from the elements and most likely lived a very ripe old age as 93. Tradition and history hold true that way. Your assumptions have no data to back them.
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:54 PM
 
392 posts, read 470,201 times
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
This refutation would be fine except that Jesus himself told those he was speaking to that their generation would not pass away before he came. Also in Rev.1 we see that revelation has to do with the servants of God of which John is one of them.. so I think you are taking one verse and overriding other verses that state it would happen within their generation.

Furthermore if you really search the NT you will see that salvation is brought into reality when Christ comes back.. so do you HOPE for your salvation as the apostles did or do you HAVE salvation?

Gideon said this is absolutely taking scripture out of context. Jesus was speaking to the generation that would see the end of the world or time as we know it. The marker for that generation to be present would be the reformation of Israel, the fig tree nation. Once Israel became reformed this would mark the final generation. It would be impossible for him to be speaking of that generation as being the final one that would pass, because they did not see the abomination desolation, neither have we. Further, they did not see the sun become as sackcloth or a burlap sack covering; the moon did not and has not become as Blood. Certainly the stars have not fallen in the blackness of space as a backdrop setting. Babylon the Great has not been destroyed. Most importantly, Jesus has not come to reign yet. We could go on and on, but needless to say, many are in agreement that your interpretations are very flawed and do not measure up when compared to scripture. The angels have not gathered the elect via rapture from the four corners of the earth. The last trumpet has not sounded yet either. You are way off base. True the signs began during the times of the disciples, but they are just now reaching a climax. Now we will begin to see the end of the last generation that would not pass until the final signs are completed. Israel becoming a nation is the first sign marked by the reign of Adolph Hitler, whom killed many martyrs. This took us out of the beginning of sorrows. Now we will see such a compaign of slaughter on a worldwide scale. Then the heavens will be darkened and change. This will be the final sign before Christ returns in power and Glory.

I have salvation now; for to be abscent from my body is to be present with the Lord. We will be with him whether we live or die. If we die, he will bring us with when he returns, in order for us to receive our immortalization in our dead bodies on earth, for such the dead in Christ rise first. He brings them with from heaven, all dead saints from all ages, from Adam to the last martyr. Christ has already saved our souls; He will save our bodies when he returns to earth for his bride. That is the marriage of the Lamb, when the church raises to newness of life to join her savior in an eternal state of reign, on earth. For me to live is Christ and for me to die is gain!!!


This certainly has not occured yet!!! This is the final three and half years, when the antichrist wages war on the saints. That has not happended and the begginning of this time period will be marked by the obamanation that makes desolate or when Satan enters the temple, sets up an image, and demands that Israel and all nations bow to it.


4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 11-27-2009 at 02:15 PM..
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Old 11-27-2009, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,406,978 times
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Originally Posted by Gideon7620 View Post
Gideon says History and tradition have it that John was on the Isle of Patmos, not imprisoned, but rather in a monastery typesetting, writing the book of Revelation at very ripe age, and sheltered setting. True the average life expectancy was about 55 in that day and age, but it had nothing to do with medicine. People lived shorter lives than simply because they were more exposed to the elements. John was protected by God from the elements and most likely lived a very ripe old age as 93. Tradition and history hold true that way. Your assumptions have no data to back them.
You are mistaken... Revelation itself tells us what you say are not true...
I will go through Revlation 1:1-9 with you and you tell me if what I say is not true...


1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,


The reason for writing this book is to show Christ' servants (of which John is one) by sending an angel/vision..


2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

John saw it.. ie was there during Christ's time on earth, so we see it had to have been a disciple. Thus his age at the time he was with Christ must have been near 30 when men were considered "true adults."


3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.



So the book is written for the contemporaries of John..fellow servants of Christ and they should take it to heart because the time is near. Not far off.. not just some of it... they should read it because it is NEAR.



4 John,
To the seven churches in the province of Asia:
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,

6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.



You see in verse 6 another reference to US... the servants of Christ including John.. writing to the 7 churches in Asia.. actually what we call Asia minor where John the apostle is purported to have gone to establish these churches. You can read more here: http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/John_the_Apostle : "Tradition holds that he went to Ephesus with the Virgin Mary and founded several churches in Asia minor."

7 Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him.
So shall it be! Amen.


Even those who pierced him.. now this could mean even though they are long dead they will see him coming.. but there is no real reason not to think that since the churches, the servants of Christ, and John are all to take these things to heart.. that this would be they are dead while the peoples of the earth are alive... He is still talking about the present.. when he was writing.


8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”
One Like a Son of Man
9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

Now in verse 9 you can see that it is patient endurance of a common suffering that John is experiencing in his own time... that he was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and testimony of Jesus.. does that sound like he was on sabbatical in a monastery?

The website (link) I posted above puts it this way: "Revelation adds that its author was on the island of Patmos "for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus," (Revelation 1:9), meaning that he had become the "confessor" who had apparently been exiled to Patmos on account of his faith."

So it was either imprisonment or exile.. either way he was still preaching and being persecuted..

Now in light of those clues alone can you still support a late date? The ones who pierced him.. either referring to the guards who actually did the deed or the Jewish Leadership who caused it in the first place... would have been long dead by 93 AD.. so what is the purpose of stating this if they were dead already? And furthermore.. can you picture people trying to exile and/or persecute a 93 year old man?
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