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Old 11-27-2009, 04:06 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,294,852 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Okay so the same day of harvest applies but the order of the tares and wheat are different. What happens to the wheat? Obviously the tares are burned... The wheat go into the barn... but isnt the wheat separated from the chaff of the wheat and the chaff is burned? Anyway you look at it I can't figure out why you even stated this.. what does that have to do with a pre-trib rapture?
Because Pre-tribulational or Pre-millenialism states that the saints are raptured first, and the wicked are left to endure the great tribulation, whether it be the whole 7 years, 3.5, or in regards to the Pre-wrath view, prior to the vial judgements.


Stay busy in the Word!
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Old 11-27-2009, 04:08 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,404,036 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Because Pre-tribulational or Pre-millenialism states that the saints are raptured first, and the wicked are left to endure the great tribulation, whether it be the whole 7 years, 3.5, or in regards to the Pre-wrath view, prior to the vial judgements.


Stay busy in the Word!
Right.. that is what I thought. I don't think very many people catch that...

Carry on...
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Old 11-27-2009, 04:22 PM
 
392 posts, read 470,059 times
Reputation: 29
Quote:
Katjonjj said,

So Jesus thought about what would be written down and canonized later in order to direct this information to you or whatever future generation it is that the end of time falls upon? Rather than it applies to those he was directly speaking to? How do you say that? Sure Jesus could have known that it would be written down and passed on throughout the generations... but why speak it then? Why run around telling people about the end of time and his return if all he needed to do was get someone to write down his words for a future generation? And you say I am taking the scripture out of context? How so?


Yet isn't it true that Israel had already begun a reformation when they began to return from exile from Babylon? So that Jesus' generation was such that the Jews were living in the promised land again?

What do you mean they didn't see the abomination? There could have been several.. only the generation that saw it would know. Luke 21:20 enlightens us as to what is before the abomination: "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh."

So around 69AD when the Roman armies surrounded the city so that no communication nor supplies could go in or out.. that would be the sign that was talked about... For more clarification read this article:

All of these things never happened literally in any other prophecies that we know were fulfilled in the OT.. so it is figurative language for judgment. Mountains splitting in two..etc. Not literal just prophetic language for judgment.

So who do you think Babylon the Great is? Didn't the Jews who inhabited Jerusalem in Christ's time just come from Babylon?

When Jesus was on earth and while the apostles are preaching in his name he is reigning...why do you think he was called king of the jews... His reign began the moment he started his ministry and was to end when he had put all enemies under him... So are you saying that Jesus has not come to reign again yet?


The angels do not gather the elect via rapture anywhere in scripture anyway so that is your interpolation there...

Here are the verses:
Mark 13:26-27“At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Zechariah 2:6 "Ho there! Flee from the land of the north," declares the LORD, "for I have dispersed you as the four winds of the heavens," declares the LORD "Come, O Zion! Escape, you who live in the Daughter of Babylon!"

So who is the Daughter of Babylon? Jerusalem perhaps?

None of this is even in the bible... you are adding things. You can believe what you want.. but not one thing here is biblical.


Actually you are mistaken again. One cannot have salvation if Christ has not come a second time.. it is shown here:

1 Thess. 5:8 But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.

First they belong to THE DAY and they have the HOPE of salvation as a helmet...

Romans 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?

1 Peter 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

So the revelation of Jesus Christ is their hope for Grace..

1 Peter 1:3-5 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade--kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

If you think that the Last time, the coming of Jesus Christ, etc. has not occurred, then you only hope for salvation.. you cannot have it as is established by these verses.

And yet you miss that verse 33 shows that THIS generation shall not pass until all these are fulfilled... is Jesus lying to the people he speaks to? or is he telling the truth that it is within the disciples generation (THIS generation) that will see ALL those things be fulfilled?

You are not catching that Jesus was speaking to these people. He did not dictate the bible so it could be written down. His words were written down after his death. These are the sayings of Jesus. Yet you tell me that he said to others that all would be fulfilled in THIS generation yet he meant a generation far off in the future?

Gideon said,

Your reasoning of scripture is impure and corrupted. I guess I can start off by saying, I am saved now and forever and I know it. If I die today, I will be present with the Lord. Do you deny that the security of assurance the individual believers have is set in the stone, Christ? As you have said no one is saved until christ comes. It is very obvious you have taken scriptures out of context. You have misconstrued the meaning of I Thess. 5:8 in that you think Paul is telling us we are not saved until Jesus comes. We are not saved bodily until he comes, but I and all saints are currently saved. When Jesus returns, he conquers death for us as we are immortalized into his likeness. You must read all surrounding verses to get the context and meaning of this verse. .


Quote:
You posted and misconstrued this, even a diluted version of the original canonized version.
Quote:
1 Thess. 5:8 But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.
Gideon said,

Now we will cover I Thes 5, another famed set of verses proclaimed by pre-tribulationists to show and prove the pre-tribulation rapture. I am not sure what you are, perhaps a JW, or a SDA; definately your presentation is very confused and way off target. In analyzing these verses obvious errors in these claims will become evident to the readers. Remember, most of these errors are not recognized by these because they are caught in a Darbyist tradition pr some other corrupted even more recent tradition, heresy of men. These are lost and they pay no heed to doctrinal truths. Most importantly, the lost can not see truths in scripture, because they are spiritually descernable; if one is not saved "now" they certainly will not see truth now. More proof btw, that the saved are saved now and can see biblical truths. The unsaved can not see truth. They can gibber and jabber all they want, but it is not truth as they have not the truth, lest they repent. Just as Roman Catholics do not recognize the obvious errors of celibacy in the priesthood, so these do not recognize their errors, due to tradition and their lack of knowledge or lack of desire in seeking the truth. They prefer to be spoon fed lies, vain traditions of men, and heresies. We will disprove their theory and show the facts. The plan is to continue demonstrating how inaccurate their assumptions are by using Bible passages in which they claim their early rapture is proven and depicted in or in this case, he claims we are not saved until Jesus returns. As we go along, we will define even more terminologies to prove the errors of pre-tribulationism.

1 Thessalonians 5 (King James Version)


1 Thessalonians 5


1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him

Thes 5:9 is where we want to start here. We will proceed in sort of a reverse chronological order to arrive and the meaning in its context. Another reason for starting here is this verse is literally "the cornerstone" of pre-tribulationism. When interpreting the scriptures, context is the king of understanding them. When we back up to verse 2 we see that Paul has set the context here. 2For yourselves know perfectly that "The Day of the Lord" so cometh as a thief in the night. Here, Paul is talking about the wrath of God that shall come to the unbelieving on "The Day of the Lord." The Day of the Lord occurs after the Great Tribulation! Isaiah 13:9Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancY of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Jesus sets the timeline for these events also in Mathew 24.29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Paul's main point here is that the church is not appointed the wrath God will pour out on the wicked on "The Day of the Lord," at the end of the Great Tribulation. The word wrath has nothing to do with the Great Tribulation, nor is it the Great Tribulation as they falsely claim. Rather, the wrath occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation, when Jesus arrives to pour it out. We see Revelation 6 also agrees with this, as do all other accounts. Once again, we encounter a perfect description of the celestial events that take place at the end of the GT. What else does the sixth seal reveal? It reveals the kings of the earth are fearful because they see the Great Day of the Lord's wrath is come. TheY see it is here and about to unfold. This Greek manuscript present is in the present tense. This clearly is the time that the wrath of the Lord actually begins, at the end of the GT and not seven or more years earlier as they falsely proclaim, loudly.12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand

As we can see, God's wrath is not the persecutions, troubles, tribulations, and trials that occur during the tribulation as pre-tribulationists proclaim. Imagine what some of these in God's strong delusion will think when we, the saints go through this Great Tribulationj; they will think, the antichrist is God, and that he is pouring his wrath out on us by killing us. The Bible clearly tells us they will think they are doing God a service by killing and persecuting us, the saints.This is the end result of their reason, and holds testimony that they certainly will be in Great Delusion sent by God. We understand clearly now, that God's wrath occurs at the end of the GT, and is directed only towards the wicked, not the saints.

Another seen is visible, and is contained as part of the breaking of the sixth seal. This other seen is in chapter seven. There are many saints that have been ruptured from death and a living hell on earth, and they have been transformed into the likeness of Christ. These have been separated from those whom will see the wrath of God at the end of the GT. 13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? And whence came they?

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Now we can move on to the other verses contained in I Thes 5. In summary, God has not appointed us to the wrath he pours out on The Day of the Lord, at the end of the Great Tribulation is what Paul tells us. Pre-tribulationism, lies and tells us this means God has not appointed the church to the suffering, troubles, persecutions, and tribulations that wil transpire during the Great Tribulation, which is a period of about 3.5 years; in an obvious state of heresy, they refer to the wrath of God as meaning tribulation for Israel during this period. They falsely proclaim with this verse, as they take it way out of context, that Jesus is going to secretly fly us away to heaven, as a thief in the night, since we the church is not subject to God's wrath..We know the tribulation last a total of about 7 years. The persecution starts in the middle of the seven years, continues to the end, and is called the Great Tribulation. The wrath, or The Day of the Lord, comes at the end of the Great Tribulation.

I Thessalonians 5:

9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Their false translation of this verse would read as such; God has not appointed the church to tribulation, during the tribulation, but to be saved by Jesus in a secret, hidden, not mentioned in scripture rapture before the TRIBULATION STARTS. When Jesus returns to pour his wrath on Satan, his wicked minions, and all his followers, whom are in error, he also returns to deliver the saints bodily from an old broken down body that is mortal. He immortalizes the saints. He previously saved their souls by grace, through their faith in the Savior, now he saves them bodily as they become immortalized at his presence and glorious return. Salvation of the soul does not occur here but occured previously from the foundation of the world. God knew all that would be saved and written in the Lambs Book of Life, way before they even accepted him. So in a sense they were saved even before they confessed their sins; they were saved from the foundation of the world, because God in his omnicience new all whom would come to him for Grace.

Now that we understand what the cornerstone of the pre-tribulation fallacy is, how they misconstrue the meaning, and what it really means we may proceed to the meanings, and misconceptions of the other verses and see how they misconstrue these also. The key to interpreting these first two verses is found in verse 4 where Paul tells us that we are not in darkness that this day should over take us as a thief. The thief comes to judge and bring wrath upon the wicked; he, Jesus does not come unawares to the saints so they can escape from the tribulation. Had the thief represented rapture, the good man of the house would have gladly suffered his house being broken into. The thief here is "The Day of the Lord" -- it is a time of wrath upon those *not* watching. Those watching are not harmed by the thief, because they would have been faithful and watchful, and not caught off guard. We will cover this verb watch and see what it means in the Greek. Verse 1 and 2 are primarily written to the wicked ones whom will be caught off guard. While it is true we will not know the day or hour Jesus is coming in, we must however know the timing or season of his arrival, by observing the signs of the times. As we read on we will see that clearly.

Let's move on to verse three and see how it unfolds. When they shall say peace and safety is when they think everything is finally peaceful and safe in our world. When that happens is when Jesus is about to return. Paul further tells us it is like a woman in travail and having pain to be delivered. So the tribulation contractions will grow stronger and more pronounced as the coming nears. What are the contractions? They are the signs of the times, earthquakes, pestilence, wars, rumors of wars, persecutions against the saints, etc. They, the tribulation pains, will become strong as the second coming nears. Yet they still will not see the signs and think everything is ok; they will not escape

Verse 4 is a key to breaking the meaning of the significance of the thief. Paul instructs us not to worry because we are not in darkness that The Day of the Lord should overtake us as a thief. In other words, we will be able to see and decipher what is going on. Paul tells us that we are of the day and not of the night, so we can see, but those in darkness cannot see. [

]Now the pre-tribulationists are obviously in darkness as they cannot see. Some can [/SIZE]
]1But ofthe times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. [/SIZE]
]2For yourselves know perfectly that the day ofthe Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. [/SIZE]
]3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. [/SIZE]
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

]Gideon said,
Now that we understand what the cornerstone of the pre-tribulation, fallacy is we can see how they misconstrue the interpretation of it, and what it really means; we may next, proceed to the meanings, and misconceptions of the other verses and see how they pervert these also. The key to interpreting these first two verses is found in verse 4 where Paul tells us that we are not in darkness that this day should over take us as a thief. The thief comes to judge and bring wrath upon the wicked; he, Jesus does not come unawares to the saints so they can escape from the tribulation as preached by pre-tribulationism. Had the thief represented rapture, the good man of the house would have gladly suffered his house being broken into. The thief here is "The Day of the Lord" -- it is a time of wrath upon those *not* watching. Those watching are not harmed by the thief, because they would have been faithful and watchful, and not caught off guard. We will cover this verb watch and see what it means in the Greek. Verse 1 and 2 are primarily written to the wicked ones whom will be caught off guard. While it is true we will not know the day or hour Jesus is coming in, we must however know the timing or season of his arrival, by observing the signs of the times. As we read on we will see that clearly.

The word watch comes from the Greek word, "gregoreuo"; it means to watch and be sober, with a mindfulness attention to God's revelations, a mindfulness of threatening dangers, with a conscious earnestness and an alert mind. In other words God wants us to be sober in thought and expectation of the things that are to transpire. Do not let the chaos bother you or make you unfaithful to God. Keep from all drowsiness and all slackening in the energy of faith and conduct. Simply put, God wants us to trust him and be faithful to what he has warned us about and told us already. This fits precisely in post-tribulationism, but it contradicts the thoughts and structures of pre-tribualtionism

]Example, while we believe we are not of the night and can see the signs, simply because we are of the day and in the light, We do not believe as post-tribulationists that this means Jesus is going to fly us away in a secret rapture, not seen anywhere in scripture. Those in the night cannot see truth. We can and we know what it means. The truth is revealed to us because we are of the day and can see it like one sees in the day light.

Contrast what was just stated above to the pre-tribulation dogma. They believe to not be of the night means Jesus is going to secretly fly them away from the tribulation to come. So they erroneously believe the tribulation is the night or the tribulation is the darkness. This is a false analogy, as the night is coming only to those that are in spiritual darkness and cannot see the truth. The night is not the tribulation, but rather it is a condition the wicked will be put in so they cannot see the truth. [

When we watch we are to watch for the signs of his coming. The signs are seen in Mathew 24, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Mark 13, etc. This word watching does not mean to stay up 24 hours per day for 365 days per years to see when he arrives and that arrival may occur anytime since Jesus left, btw according to them. What it means is to have a spiritual awareness, provided by being cognoscente of the times and conditions around us. Yet pre-tribulationists are so confused, they think it means to stay up all night and watch, as they claim Jesus could have come any time after his ascension without any signs to point us to his coming. That is absurd; one has to be brain dead to follow that dogma, especially if they learn what their doctrine implies.

Let's move on to verse three and see how it unfolds. When they shall say peace and safety is when they think everything is finally peaceful and safe in our world. When that happens is when Jesus is about to return. Paul further tells us it is like a woman in travail and having pain to be delivered. So the tribulation contractions will grow stronger and more pronounced as the coming nears. What are the contractions? They are the signs of the times, earthquakes, pestilence, wars, rumors of wars, persecutions against the saints, etc. They, the tribulation pains, will become stronger as the second coming nears. Yet they, the wicked, still will not see the signs and think everything is ok; they will not escape.

]Verse 4 is a key to breaking the meaning of the significance of the thief. Paul instructs us not to worry because we are not in darkness that The Day of the Lord should overtake us as a thief. In other words, we will be able to see and decipher what is going on. Paul tells us that we are of the day and not of the night, so we can see, but those in darkness cannot see. Verse 5 elaborates on this even more.

Now some pre-tribulationists are obviously in darkness as they cannot see. Some cannot see simply because they have never analyzed this doctrine as we are now. The ones that vehemently claim this as accurate doctrine and try to explain the Bible away are most likely in darkness. If so, and they continue in that darkness without repenting, God will send them strong delusion, when he sends it. That is scary. So for some, it will be too late to repent when the strong delusion comes. Verse 6 tells us to not sleep as do others, but let us be sober and watch, aware. The word sleep comes from the Greek word katheudo, and it means to be spiritually asleep.

The word sober in the Greek is nepho, it means to be sober minded, watchful and cercumpspect. This word deos not mean to obstain from alchohol, but can mean to not drink in excess also.We are to be of sound mind; pretibulationism is the oposite of soundmindedness. In verse 6 Paul is telling us to be of soundmind, and not let any wind of doctrine carry us to error

Now we may carry on to the next group verses and conclude this study of I Thes 5. To summarize what we have learned we find that Jesus only comes as a thief in the night to the ones living in darkness, the wicked ones, whom are not part of God's kingdom. Jesus will not come as a thief nor will The Day of the Lord overtake us as a thief or by surprise as we are in the light or of the day. The wicked ones are of the night and cannot discern the signs of the times. Those in darkness or that are not sober, will see the wrath of God on The Day of the Lord. When those in darkness think all is peace and safety, that is when the sudden destruction of the Lord comes upon them.

The error of pretribulationism is discovered in them thinking that since they are not in darkness or of the night, this must mean Jesus is going to fly them away before the tribulation strikes. They wrongfully think they will escape the tribulation as they wrongfully apply the night or darkness as being the tribulation. Nence they rediculously conclude, Jesus is going to fly them away secretly, and they all are going to disappear when he does. This doctrine is as crazy as it sounds. There view is warped and contradicts scripture entirely. As we have learned, the darkness is the spiritual darkness of not being able to see the truth.

1But ofthe times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. [/SIZE]
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day ofthe Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. [/SIZE]
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. [/SIZE]
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. [/SIZE]
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children ofthe day: we are not ofthe night, nor of darkness. [/SIZE]
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.


And we could go on and on; but I certainly will not cover all the points you mentioned at once. If you are such a theologian, you should no that would take about 20-25 pages. Let's start with the one in which you say the saints are not saved yet. What do you suppose saves a saint from their sins? When does that occur? Is it permanent or can a saint lose it?


Quote:
Katjonjj
Here are just a few verses to disprove the grave error you are in. So are you telling us that saints whom have trusted Christ as their savior and not saved until Jesus comes. What happens to them if they die? Where do they go? John tells us in the present progressive tense, that He whom hath the son hath life, and that being life eternal. Do you deny the words of John the desciple. He further tells us that he has written the things unto us, the church, that has believed in the name of Jesus for salvation, that we may know (present progressive again) that we have eternal life. This means, once we are saved, we are always saved. Sin can't take that away, Satan or the church. It is the gift of God, lest any dare or should boast of it not being. Present progressive means we know now and it progressive always into the future, without end. We see in Romans what Paul has to say also, and it is even stronger and proves the heresy you follow as wrong, and unbiblical. Let's not cherry pic verses and take them out of context. The verse you presented in II Thes 1, as proven, was speaking of the salvation of the body and not the spirit. Our helmet of faith is our hope of salvation. We are saved now, and we know we will be resurrected into his Likeness when he returns. If you do not have this faith, then you are not saved. Paul tells us when we confess our sins, and believe God hath raised Jesus from the dead, we become saved. With our hearts we have believed unto righteousness and with our mouths we have confessed to salvation. We do not wait until Jesus comes to be saved. We are saved now. For to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord; that means we are saved now. What did king David say after he sinned? He said restore unto me the joy of my salvation. He did not say restore unto me my salvation, nor did he say, I will be save when the Messiah comes. He was a saved sinner, by the grace of God that lost fellowship with his savior because of sin he commited. Never did he lose salvation; he always had it and still does. He will be saved bodily when Jesus comes to resurrect all the deads saints of the ages, at the end of the Great Tribulation. For paul to live is Christ and for him to die is gain. He is saved either way. Here is more proof. Hey we are saved whether we sleep or wake (whether we are dead or alive). We are not appointed to the wrath the ungodly will see at the end of the GT. We will be saved if we die now for to be abscent from our body means we will be with the Lord. If we wake when he returns or are alive, then we will be changed and immortalized. The kingdom of God is with in us. If we are saved, we are the kingdom, nothing can take that away. We only need to join the Lord in Matrimony when he comes to be glorified in his saints with our immortalization into His likeness at the end of the Great Tibulation. Then and only then can we reign eternally with Him. For we shall be as He is when we see him.

Now if you want to contend more for the faith, bring on one point at a time. Here we have covered the eternal security of the believer briefly. Once a saint is genuinely saved, they are always saved, by his imputation, justification, sanctification, and his purification. There is no such thing as a saint not being saved until Jesus comes. We are saved now^^^



I John 5

12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Romans 10

8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Psalms 51


9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

Phillipians 1

20According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.


I Thessalonians 5

9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.


And yes, Jesus did think about and know what would be canonized years later at the council of Nicaea; He is God is he not? He is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, is he not? I don't know about your God, but my God is all powerful, all knowing, and can be everywhere at once. My God is Jesus, the father son and Holy Ghost.

Do you serve the same God or is your God incapable of knowing the future, because your comments make me truly wonder? Here is another one below.
[SIZE=3][/SIZE]
Quote:
So Jesus thought about what would be written down and canonized later in order to direct this information to you or whatever future generation it is that the end of time falls upon? Rather than it applies to those he was directly speaking to?

Last edited by Gideon7620; 11-27-2009 at 05:03 PM.. Reason: g
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Old 11-27-2009, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,404,036 times
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Originally Posted by Gideon7620 View Post
Gideon said,

Your reasoning of scripture is impure and corrupted. I guess I can start off by saying, I am saved now and forever and I know it. If I die today, I will be present with the Lord. Do you deny that the security of assurance the individual believers have is set in the stone, Christ? As you have said no one is saved until christ comes. It is very obvious you have taken scriptures out of context. You have misconstrued the meaning of I Thess. 5:8 in that you think Paul is telling us we are not saved until Jesus comes. We are not saved bodily until he comes, but I and all saints are currently saved. When Jesus returns, he conquers death for us as we are immortalized into his likeness. You must read all surrounding verses to get the context and meaning of this verse. .




Gideon said,

Now we will cover I Thes 5, another famed set of verses proclaimed by pre-tribulationists to show and prove the pre-tribulation rapture. I am not sure what you are, perhaps a JW, or a SDA; definately your presentation is very confused and way off target. In analyzing these verses obvious errors in these claims will become evident to the readers. Remember, most of these errors are not recognized by these because they are caught in a Darbyist tradition pr some other corrupted even more recent tradition, heresy of men. These are lost and they pay no heed to doctrinal truths. Most importantly, the lost can not see truths in scripture, because they are spiritually descernable; if one is not saved "now" they certainly will not see truth now. More proof btw, that the saved are saved now and can see biblical truths. The unsaved can not see truth. They can gibber and jabber all they want, but it is not truth as they have not the truth, lest they repent. Just as Roman Catholics do not recognize the obvious errors of celibacy in the priesthood, so these do not recognize their errors, due to tradition and their lack of knowledge or lack of desire in seeking the truth. They prefer to be spoon fed lies, vain traditions of men, and heresies. We will disprove their theory and show the facts. The plan is to continue demonstrating how inaccurate their assumptions are by using Bible passages in which they claim their early rapture is proven and depicted in or in this case, he claims we are not saved until Jesus returns. As we go along, we will define even more terminologies to prove the errors of pre-tribulationism.

1 Thessalonians 5 (King James Version)


1 Thessalonians 5


1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him

Thes 5:9 is where we want to start here. We will proceed in sort of a reverse chronological order to arrive and the meaning in its context. Another reason for starting here is this verse is literally "the cornerstone" of pre-tribulationism. When interpreting the scriptures, context is the king of understanding them. When we back up to verse 2 we see that Paul has set the context here. 2For yourselves know perfectly that "The Day of the Lord" so cometh as a thief in the night. Here, Paul is talking about the wrath of God that shall come to the unbelieving on "The Day of the Lord." The Day of the Lord occurs after the Great Tribulation! Isaiah 13:9Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancY of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Jesus sets the timeline for these events also in Mathew 24.29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Paul's main point here is that the church is not appointed the wrath God will pour out on the wicked on "The Day of the Lord," at the end of the Great Tribulation. The word wrath has nothing to do with the Great Tribulation, nor is it the Great Tribulation as they falsely claim. Rather, the wrath occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation, when Jesus arrives to pour it out. We see Revelation 6 also agrees with this, as do all other accounts. Once again, we encounter a perfect description of the celestial events that take place at the end of the GT. What else does the sixth seal reveal? It reveals the kings of the earth are fearful because they see the Great Day of the Lord's wrath is come. TheY see it is here and about to unfold. This Greek manuscript present is in the present tense. This clearly is the time that the wrath of the Lord actually begins, at the end of the GT and not seven or more years earlier as they falsely proclaim, loudly.12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand

As we can see, God's wrath is not the persecutions, troubles, tribulations, and trials that occur during the tribulation as pre-tribulationists proclaim. Imagine what some of these in God's strong delusion will think when we, the saints go through this Great Tribulationj; they will think, the antichrist is God, and that he is pouring his wrath out on us by killing us. The Bible clearly tells us they will think they are doing God a service by killing and persecuting us, the saints.This is the end result of their reason, and holds testimony that they certainly will be in Great Delusion sent by God. We understand clearly now, that God's wrath occurs at the end of the GT, and is directed only towards the wicked, not the saints.

Another seen is visible, and is contained as part of the breaking of the sixth seal. This other seen is in chapter seven. There are many saints that have been ruptured from death and a living hell on earth, and they have been transformed into the likeness of Christ. These have been separated from those whom will see the wrath of God at the end of the GT. 13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? And whence came they?

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Now we can move on to the other verses contained in I Thes 5. In summary, God has not appointed us to the wrath he pours out on The Day of the Lord, at the end of the Great Tribulation is what Paul tells us. Pre-tribulationism, lies and tells us this means God has not appointed the church to the suffering, troubles, persecutions, and tribulations that wil transpire during the Great Tribulation, which is a period of about 3.5 years; in an obvious state of heresy, they refer to the wrath of God as meaning tribulation for Israel during this period. They falsely proclaim with this verse, as they take it way out of context, that Jesus is going to secretly fly us away to heaven, as a thief in the night, since we the church is not subject to God's wrath..We know the tribulation last a total of about 7 years. The persecution starts in the middle of the seven years, continues to the end, and is called the Great Tribulation. The wrath, or The Day of the Lord, comes at the end of the Great Tribulation.

I Thessalonians 5:

9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Their false translation of this verse would read as such; God has not appointed the church to tribulation, during the tribulation, but to be saved by Jesus in a secret, hidden, not mentioned in scripture rapture before the TRIBULATION STARTS. When Jesus returns to pour his wrath on Satan, his wicked minions, and all his followers, whom are in error, he also returns to deliver the saints bodily from an old broken down body that is mortal. He immortalizes the saints. He previously saved their souls by grace, through their faith in the Savior, now he saves them bodily as they become immortalized at his presence and glorious return. Salvation of the soul does not occur here but occured previously from the foundation of the world. God knew all that would be saved and written in the Lambs Book of Life, way before they even accepted him. So in a sense they were saved even before they confessed their sins; they were saved from the foundation of the world, because God in his omnicience new all whom would come to him for Grace.

Now that we understand what the cornerstone of the pre-tribulation fallacy is, how they misconstrue the meaning, and what it really means we may proceed to the meanings, and misconceptions of the other verses and see how they misconstrue these also. The key to interpreting these first two verses is found in verse 4 where Paul tells us that we are not in darkness that this day should over take us as a thief. The thief comes to judge and bring wrath upon the wicked; he, Jesus does not come unawares to the saints so they can escape from the tribulation. Had the thief represented rapture, the good man of the house would have gladly suffered his house being broken into. The thief here is "The Day of the Lord" -- it is a time of wrath upon those *not* watching. Those watching are not harmed by the thief, because they would have been faithful and watchful, and not caught off guard. We will cover this verb watch and see what it means in the Greek. Verse 1 and 2 are primarily written to the wicked ones whom will be caught off guard. While it is true we will not know the day or hour Jesus is coming in, we must however know the timing or season of his arrival, by observing the signs of the times. As we read on we will see that clearly.

Let's move on to verse three and see how it unfolds. When they shall say peace and safety is when they think everything is finally peaceful and safe in our world. When that happens is when Jesus is about to return. Paul further tells us it is like a woman in travail and having pain to be delivered. So the tribulation contractions will grow stronger and more pronounced as the coming nears. What are the contractions? They are the signs of the times, earthquakes, pestilence, wars, rumors of wars, persecutions against the saints, etc. They, the tribulation pains, will become strong as the second coming nears. Yet they still will not see the signs and think everything is ok; they will not escape

Verse 4 is a key to breaking the meaning of the significance of the thief. Paul instructs us not to worry because we are not in darkness that The Day of the Lord should overtake us as a thief. In other words, we will be able to see and decipher what is going on. Paul tells us that we are of the day and not of the night, so we can see, but those in darkness cannot see. [

]Now the pre-tribulationists are obviously in darkness as they cannot see. Some can [/SIZE]
]1But ofthe times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. [/SIZE]
]2For yourselves know perfectly that the day ofthe Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. [/SIZE]
]3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. [/SIZE]
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

]Gideon said,
Now that we understand what the cornerstone of the pre-tribulation, fallacy is we can see how they misconstrue the interpretation of it, and what it really means; we may next, proceed to the meanings, and misconceptions of the other verses and see how they pervert these also. The key to interpreting these first two verses is found in verse 4 where Paul tells us that we are not in darkness that this day should over take us as a thief. The thief comes to judge and bring wrath upon the wicked; he, Jesus does not come unawares to the saints so they can escape from the tribulation as preached by pre-tribulationism. Had the thief represented rapture, the good man of the house would have gladly suffered his house being broken into. The thief here is "The Day of the Lord" -- it is a time of wrath upon those *not* watching. Those watching are not harmed by the thief, because they would have been faithful and watchful, and not caught off guard. We will cover this verb watch and see what it means in the Greek. Verse 1 and 2 are primarily written to the wicked ones whom will be caught off guard. While it is true we will not know the day or hour Jesus is coming in, we must however know the timing or season of his arrival, by observing the signs of the times. As we read on we will see that clearly.

The word watch comes from the Greek word, "gregoreuo"; it means to watch and be sober, with a mindfulness attention to God's revelations, a mindfulness of threatening dangers, with a conscious earnestness and an alert mind. In other words God wants us to be sober in thought and expectation of the things that are to transpire. Do not let the chaos bother you or make you unfaithful to God. Keep from all drowsiness and all slackening in the energy of faith and conduct. Simply put, God wants us to trust him and be faithful to what he has warned us about and told us already. This fits precisely in post-tribulationism, but it contradicts the thoughts and structures of pre-tribualtionism

]Example, while we believe we are not of the night and can see the signs, simply because we are of the day and in the light, We do not believe as post-tribulationists that this means Jesus is going to fly us away in a secret rapture, not seen anywhere in scripture. Those in the night cannot see truth. We can and we know what it means. The truth is revealed to us because we are of the day and can see it like one sees in the day light.

Contrast what was just stated above to the pre-tribulation dogma. They believe to not be of the night means Jesus is going to secretly fly them away from the tribulation to come. So they erroneously believe the tribulation is the night or the tribulation is the darkness. This is a false analogy, as the night is coming only to those that are in spiritual darkness and cannot see the truth. The night is not the tribulation, but rather it is a condition the wicked will be put in so they cannot see the truth. [

When we watch we are to watch for the signs of his coming. The signs are seen in Mathew 24, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Mark 13, etc. This word watching does not mean to stay up 24 hours per day for 365 days per years to see when he arrives and that arrival may occur anytime since Jesus left, btw according to them. What it means is to have a spiritual awareness, provided by being cognoscente of the times and conditions around us. Yet pre-tribulationists are so confused, they think it means to stay up all night and watch, as they claim Jesus could have come any time after his ascension without any signs to point us to his coming. That is absurd; one has to be brain dead to follow that dogma, especially if they learn what their doctrine implies.

Let's move on to verse three and see how it unfolds. When they shall say peace and safety is when they think everything is finally peaceful and safe in our world. When that happens is when Jesus is about to return. Paul further tells us it is like a woman in travail and having pain to be delivered. So the tribulation contractions will grow stronger and more pronounced as the coming nears. What are the contractions? They are the signs of the times, earthquakes, pestilence, wars, rumors of wars, persecutions against the saints, etc. They, the tribulation pains, will become stronger as the second coming nears. Yet they, the wicked, still will not see the signs and think everything is ok; they will not escape.

]Verse 4 is a key to breaking the meaning of the significance of the thief. Paul instructs us not to worry because we are not in darkness that The Day of the Lord should overtake us as a thief. In other words, we will be able to see and decipher what is going on. Paul tells us that we are of the day and not of the night, so we can see, but those in darkness cannot see. Verse 5 elaborates on this even more.

Now some pre-tribulationists are obviously in darkness as they cannot see. Some cannot see simply because they have never analyzed this doctrine as we are now. The ones that vehemently claim this as accurate doctrine and try to explain the Bible away are most likely in darkness. If so, and they continue in that darkness without repenting, God will send them strong delusion, when he sends it. That is scary. So for some, it will be too late to repent when the strong delusion comes. Verse 6 tells us to not sleep as do others, but let us be sober and watch, aware. The word sleep comes from the Greek word katheudo, and it means to be spiritually asleep.

The word sober in the Greek is nepho, it means to be sober minded, watchful and cercumpspect. This word deos not mean to obstain from alchohol, but can mean to not drink in excess also.We are to be of sound mind; pretibulationism is the oposite of soundmindedness. In verse 6 Paul is telling us to be of soundmind, and not let any wind of doctrine carry us to error

Now we may carry on to the next group verses and conclude this study of I Thes 5. To summarize what we have learned we find that Jesus only comes as a thief in the night to the ones living in darkness, the wicked ones, whom are not part of God's kingdom. Jesus will not come as a thief nor will The Day of the Lord overtake us as a thief or by surprise as we are in the light or of the day. The wicked ones are of the night and cannot discern the signs of the times. Those in darkness or that are not sober, will see the wrath of God on The Day of the Lord. When those in darkness think all is peace and safety, that is when the sudden destruction of the Lord comes upon them.

The error of pretribulationism is discovered in them thinking that since they are not in darkness or of the night, this must mean Jesus is going to fly them away before the tribulation strikes. They wrongfully think they will escape the tribulation as they wrongfully apply the night or darkness as being the tribulation. Nence they rediculously conclude, Jesus is going to fly them away secretly, and they all are going to disappear when he does. This doctrine is as crazy as it sounds. There view is warped and contradicts scripture entirely. As we have learned, the darkness is the spiritual darkness of not being able to see the truth.

1But ofthe times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. [/SIZE]
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day ofthe Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. [/SIZE]
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. [/SIZE]
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. [/SIZE]
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children ofthe day: we are not ofthe night, nor of darkness. [/SIZE]
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.


And we could go on and on; but I certainly will not cover all the points you mentioned at once. If you are such a theologian, you should no that would take about 20-25 pages. Let's start with the one in which you say the saints are not saved yet. What do you suppose saves a saint from their sins? When does that occur? Is it permanent or can a saint lose it?



Here are just a few verses to disprove the grave error you are in. So are you telling us that saints whom have trusted Christ as their savior and not saved until Jesus comes. What happens to them if they die? Where do they go? John tells us in the present progressive tense, that He whom hath the son hath life, and that being life eternal. Do you deny the words of John the desciple. He further tells us that he has written the things unto us, the church, that has believed in the name of Jesus for salvation, that we may know (present progressive again) that we have eternal life. This means, once we are saved, we are always saved. Sin can't take that away, Satan or the church. It is the gift of God, lest any dare or should boast of it not being. Present progressive means we know now and it progressive always into the future, without end. We see in Romans what Paul has to say also, and it is even stronger and proves the heresy you follow as wrong, and unbiblical. Let's not cherry pic verses and take them out of context. The verse you presented in II Thes 1, as proven, was speaking of the salvation of the body and not the spirit. Our helmet of faith is our hope of salvation. We are saved now, and we know we will be resurrected into his Likeness when he returns. If you do not have this faith, then you are not saved. Paul tells us when we confess our sins, and believe God hath raised Jesus from the dead, we become saved. With our hearts we have believed unto righteousness and with our mouths we have confessed to salvation. We do not wait until Jesus comes to be saved. We are saved now. For to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord; that means we are saved now. What did king David say after he sinned? He said restore unto me the joy of my salvation. He did not say restore unto me my salvation, nor did he say, I will be save when the Messiah comes. He was a saved sinner, by the grace of God that lost fellowship with his savior because of sin he commited. Never did he lose salvation; he always had it and still does. He will be saved bodily when Jesus comes to resurrect all the deads saints of the ages, at the end of the Great Tribulation. For paul to live is Christ and for him to die is gain. He is saved either way. Here is more proof. Hey we are saved whether we sleep or wake (whether we are dead or alive). We are not appointed to the wrath the ungodly will see at the end of the GT. We will be saved if we die now for to be abscent from our body means we will be with the Lord. If we wake when he returns or are alive, then we will be changed and immortalized. The kingdom of God is with in us. If we are saved, we are the kingdom, nothing can take that away. We only need to join the Lord in Matrimony when he comes to be glorified in his saints with our immortalization into His likeness at the end of the Great Tibulation. Then and only then can we reign eternally with Him. For we shall be as He is when we see him.

Now if you want to contend more for the faith, bring on one point at a time. Here we have covered the eternal security of the believer briefly. Once a saint is genuinely saved, they are always saved, by his imputation, justification, sanctification, and his purification. There is no such thing as a saint not being saved until Jesus comes. We are saved now^^^



I John 5

12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Romans 10

8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Psalms 51


9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

Phillipians 1

20According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.


I Thessalonians 5

9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.


And yes, Jesus did think about and know what would be canonized years later at the council of Nicaea; He is God is he not? He is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, is he not? I don't know about your God, but my God is all powerful, all knowing, and can be everywhere at once. My God is Jesus, the father son and Holy Ghost.

Do you serve the same God or is your God incapable of knowing the future, because your comments make me truly wonder? Here is another one below.
[SIZE=3][/SIZE]
There is way too much of that..that I disagree with... to even comment.

But now I can see where you are coming from. Thanks.
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Old 11-27-2009, 05:58 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Right.. that is what I thought. I don't think very many people catch that...

Carry on...
LOL I was like.........kat!
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Old 11-27-2009, 10:00 PM
 
Location: Winchester
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Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
I don't believe the pre-trib rapture is abusive. Sure, people can abuse anything but that does not mean the truth is wrong because people abuse the truth.

Once the complement of the nations enters THEN all Israel shall be saved WHEN arriving out of Zion shall come the Rescuer (Romans 11:25,26). Between the time when we of the nations are taken out, the Jewish believers go through the great tribulation and then Christ comes back and rescues THEM. (Read Thassalonians too).
*
Jewish people do NOT go through the tribulation.

I assume that you believe the tribulation for the Jews is the time of "Jacob's trouble" in Jeremiah. 30.
verse.5.
For thus saith the Lord. We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear and not of peace
[yeah that is what we keep hearing, what does God say about it?]
verse.6.
Ask ye now and see whether a man doth travail with child? why then do I see every man with his hands on his loins as a woman in travail and all faces are turned into paleness?
[God is saying "what are you afraid of? it is not the man [Israel is God's firstborn son] who travails in childbirth but the woman [the church? IMO]
verse 7.
Alas for that day is great so that none is like it. It is even the time of Jacob's trouble.....
[there we are the great troublation]
.....BUT, bbbut HE SHALL BE SAVED OUT OF IT
[oh]
verse.8.
For it shall come to pass in that day saith the Lord of hosts that I will break his yoke from off thy neck and will burst thy bonds and strangers will no more serve themselves of him
[That sounds like good news for Israel...and there's more]
verse 9
But they will serve the Lord their God and David their king whom I wiill raise up for them.
[Israel is to be saved during the tribulation [David their king I take to be Jesus]
verse.10
THEREFORE FEAR NOT o My servant Jacob saith the Lord NEITHER BE DISMAYED o Israel for lo I WILL SAVE THEE from afar and thy seed from the land of their captivity and Jacob will return...
[The Jews are going home ALL of them]
...and BE AT PEACE and BE QUIET and none shall make him afraid.

Want to see it again?
Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up that great prince which standeth for the children of thy people and there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation even to that time....
[there is that troublation again]
....and at that time THY PEOPLE SHALL BE DELIVERED....
[oh]
everyone who shall be found written in the book.
*
It is of the church Jesus said "parents shall deliver their children up to death" if Jewish parents delivered their children up to death they would in effect be delivering themselves up to death, since Jewish children will have Jewish parents.
Hey how awful IS this persecution that is coming upon the church? for children to deliver up their parents to death?
"You will be hate of all men for my name's sake" this is the church going through the tribulation not the Jews.
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Old 11-27-2009, 10:10 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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It is of the church Jesus said "parents shall deliver their children up to death" if Jewish parents delivered their children up to death they would in effect be delivering themselves up to death, since Jewish children will have Jewish parents.
.....as the Romans barricaded the city of Jerusalem during the Jewish War, women killed their newborn infants and ate them. It's in the history books, all you have to do is read it and see it fulfilled the prophecies that were all pointing to the destruction of the city and temple.
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Old 11-28-2009, 05:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Okay so the same day of harvest applies but the order of the tares and wheat are different. What happens to the wheat? Obviously the tares are burned... The wheat go into the barn... but isnt the wheat separated from the chaff of the wheat and the chaff is burned? Anyway you look at it I can't figure out why you even stated this.. what does that have to do with a pre-trib rapture?
The very point! The parable of the wheat and the tares describes the order of harvest and makes it clear there is no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture.
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Old 11-28-2009, 08:45 AM
 
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There is no pre-trib rapture for the circumcision believers. There is for the believers of the naitons.
"God hath not appointed us to indignation."
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Old 11-28-2009, 11:14 AM
 
Location: Winchester
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There is no pre trib rapture for anyone, tribulation is not indignation. Jesus said "they" wll deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death.
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