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Old 11-28-2009, 05:47 PM
 
392 posts, read 469,336 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Totton Linnet View Post
*
Whatever attraction preterism offers and even Spurgeon found some good in it, it is not the scriptures that did or which seem to have come to pass in 70ad which make it non viable but the scriptures that very definitely did NOT come to pass that make it impossible. It is impossible for an event like the rapture and the second coming to have escaped the notice of historians. Neither has there been such a person as Antichrist who took his seat in the temple proclaiming himself to be God.

Gideon said,

It is impossible because the Bible clearly tells us when Christ returns a number of things will transpire on that last day:The sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall, The saints from all the ages will rise to newness of life, these saints will receive their rewards-The Bema, the seventh angel sounds to mark the end of the GT and to signify the resurrection and immortalization of all the saints, the kings of the earth are angry and then scared, they are destroyed by Christ's return and their reign ends abruptly, Christ establishes his millennial reign with the saints, He begins to rule from Jerusalem, Armageddon occurs as the kings of the earth gather in an attempt to destroy the returning and reigning Messiah (King of Kings and Lord of Lords), Satan and His armies are cast into the Lake of Fire, the marriage of the Lamb occurs as the church is immortalized and Joined with Christ in eternal matrimony and on and on and on we could go. Certainly Christ has not returned yet. To say so is blasphemy; if he had returned, the world would not be in the shape it is in. The saints would all be immortalized, Jesus would be our king. Time as we know it would have ended on earth and so on

Last edited by Gideon7620; 11-28-2009 at 06:06 PM..
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Old 11-28-2009, 06:07 PM
 
Location: Winchester
170 posts, read 168,333 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
So where do the dead rising in Matt. 27:52 fit in with your view of the end times?

Is that not the dead rising?
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Paul when he was speaking to Corinthian and Thessalonian Gentiles telling them that the dead in Christ shall rise first in order re-assure them was not talking about OT saints in Matthew which happen twenty years earlier was he? Then also there is the we who shall be caught up together with them this is a mighty event and it hasn't happened. If it had we would not be here.

The problem is you come to the bible with your doctrine and wrest and twist every scripture to make it [the scripture] fit into your scheme, instead of taking each scripture at it's face value and forming your judgement from it [the scripture.]
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Old 11-28-2009, 06:19 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,430,337 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Totton Linnet View Post
There is no pre trib rapture for anyone, tribulation is not indignation. Jesus said "they" wll deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death.
The "you" Jesus was speaking to were the Jews only. That was His audience, not those of the nations.

We of the nations don't need to go through any tribulation because we won't be in Judea and we don't need tested for our faith.
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Old 11-28-2009, 06:32 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,386,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Totton Linnet View Post
*
Paul when he was speaking to Corinthian and Thessalonian Gentiles telling them that the dead in Christ shall rise first in order re-assure them was not talking about OT saints in Matthew which happen twenty years earlier was he? Then also there is the we who shall be caught up together with them this is a mighty event and it hasn't happened. If it had we would not be here.
I don't know why you think that you will be caught up with anyone.. The letters were written to specific people of that generation... how is it you think this applies to you?

Quote:
The problem is you come to the bible with your doctrine and wrest and twist every scripture to make it [the scripture] fit into your scheme, instead of taking each scripture at it's face value and forming your judgement from it [the scripture.]
I don't have any doctrine. None.. if you have read my posts in the past you will see that I reject most every doctrine because it is man's word not God's...

At face value I don't see how you arrive at a secret rapture or end of the world...
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Old 11-28-2009, 07:18 PM
 
Location: God's Country
21,417 posts, read 29,542,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I don't know why you think that you will be caught up with anyone.. The letters were written to specific people of that generation... how is it you think this applies to you?


I don't have any doctrine. None.. if you have read my posts in the past you will see that I reject most every doctrine because it is man's word not God's...

At face value I don't see how you arrive at a secret rapture or end of the world...

You don't see it because you reject what the Bible teaches.


Yea, that's very obvious you don't believe God's Word because it teaches us there will a Rapture.
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Old 11-28-2009, 07:34 PM
 
Location: Winchester
170 posts, read 168,333 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
The "you" Jesus was speaking to were the Jews only. That was His audience, not those of the nations.

We of the nations don't need to go through any tribulation because we won't be in Judea and we don't need tested for our faith.
*
That is quite rediculous, when Jesus said "ye must be born again" what was he only speaking to rabbis or Jews? or when He said "thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself?" of course not. The teaching of Daniel regarding the great tribulation is "the children of thy people will be delivered" in Jeremiah 30 God says "fear not o Jacob I will save you"
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Old 11-28-2009, 07:43 PM
 
Location: Winchester
170 posts, read 168,333 times
Reputation: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I don't know why you think that you will be caught up with anyone.. The letters were written to specific people of that generation... how is it you think this applies to you?



I don't have any doctrine. None.. if you have read my posts in the past you will see that I reject most every doctrine because it is man's word not God's...

At face value I don't see how you arrive at a secret rapture or end of the world...
*
Quote God's word "we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air, so shall we ever be with Him"
Quote man's word [you] I don't know why you think you will be caught up with anyone.

Quote God's word "then shall the end come" and "lo I am with you until the end of the age" and "the end shall come with a loud bang and fervent heat to the melting away of the elements"

I do not believe in a "secret" rapture, I believe in being caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds~and that is gunna rapture me like nothing ever raptured me, I am going to be raptured to pieces.
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Old 11-28-2009, 07:48 PM
 
392 posts, read 469,336 times
Reputation: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
The "you" Jesus was speaking to were the Jews only. That was His audience, not those of the nations.

We of the nations don't need to go through any tribulation because we won't be in Judea and we don't need tested for our faith.

Gideon said wrong, Jesus was speaking to the church,Jews and Gentiles alike; for a new covenant has been formed with Israel. Who do you suppose Paul was speaking here below in II Thes 1? Ceremonial Israel; get real, Irael has to come to the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ also. The only body that can and is responsible for doing this is the church. The bible clearly tells us salvation comes to them now by the church as they are regrafted back into the body, by the church; Romans 11, since you obviously do not know this yet.

So ok, who was Paul speaking to here? It sure was not Israel, not that it would make a difference at all. Admit it; you are living a fantacy, a fairytale; I will guranatee you Jesus is not coming for the church anytime soon. He will not come until the very end of the Great Tribulation. SHow us where you see him coming earlier since you deny Mathew 24, Mark 13 etc as being directed to the church and Israel. God told Abraham all the families and nations of the world would be blessed by his seed; God was looking into the future, when Israel would fall from God and the church would emerge to do God's work, including bringing Israel back to God by her acceptance of the suffering Messiah, soon to return and the reigning Messiah. Show us, I challenge you to show us a pre-tribulation rapture anywhere. You can't do it because it is not there, anywhere. Further, Scolfied and Darby were heretics whom brought doctrines of demons into the church and many are following their pernicious ways/ most churches are caught in this heresy and that makes most pators false prophets and heretics. They speak evil of the truth, but the evil lies in the errors of the false prophets, Darby, Scofield, the Jesuits, and the illuminists. Paul clearky warns us in II Thes 2 of the dangers in following a pretribulation rapture.

And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. Many follow this wicked error of pre-tribulationism, and they speak evil of the truth. Very few follow the post-tribulation doctrine of truth, but the numbers are growing and changing for the better. People are starting to read their bibles. They are beginning to refuse being spoon fed doctrine concerning the coming of CHrist, since it is so near. Churches don't care about anything but their 501c3 tax exemption status. They would not want to do anything to faul that up so most pastors remain in a state of apostacy.

So was Paul speaking to Israel here, not that it matters. New Israel falls under the new covenant anyways.


Now we will begin to bridge this all together to prove a post-tribulation rapture, fact. I would challenge you to read this in detail, so that we will have a better understanding of it as we go along. Read it over and over again, while attempting to uncover its meaning. We will also cover other terminologies that represent the timing and character of the post-tribulation second coming of Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1 (King James Version)


2 Thessalonians 1


1Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


The Obvious Error of Pre-Tribulationism In I Thes 1
The Obvious Misrepresentation of Words By Pretrbulationists

Gideon said, here in this chapter we see a very obvious flop-up of words by the pre-trib camp. Here Paul tells the believers that their faith has grown exceedingly. We know how faith comes about: first we know that faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God. I believe God applies that individually and differently in our lives but with the same basic technique. What may build faith in me may seem unacceptable to others; I am not saying that reading the word of God does not do this, but rather where and how we read the word may differ from person to person. God has given each a master plan for their lives to build one's faith. We need be careful in being judgmental of others lives and how God works individually with people; God speaks to man or a woman individually. So tribulation works patience and hope. If we have trouble or tribulations this is good as we have a need to developed hope in order to overcome the troubles or tribulation. As God speaks and delivers us from whatever trouble we may encounter, we gain faith in God to carry us through anything. Hence tribulation brought on by Satan is a good thing God allows to build our faith.

Yet the pre-tribulation notion or reasoning is the opposite of this philosophy; it carries and escapist ideology with it. They think we are to escape Satan's wrath, troubles, and persecution and conclude falsely that it is God's wrath. Further, they have misrepresented it and titled it as such. This chapter 1 or II Thessalonians teaches us the opposite of what they proclaim as truth, as does the entire Bible. God allows the trials and tribulation in our lives to build stronger soldiers for his command, soldiers that will not be intimidated by Satan's tribulations or his wrath he brings against those that love God. The escapist mentality is seen in a wishful, pre-tribulation rapture, not seen in scripture.

Why does Paul tell them their faith has grown exceedingly? The answer is simple. Paul knows they have suffered tribulation and he knows and sees the end result of that tribulation they suffer. Paul also knows that the end result of that is spiritual growth. He wrote about it regularly to teach us. So how in the world can they come up with the opposite of what is taught in scripture, through and through. The answer is found in II Thes 2; they have a love for unrighteousness in some cases or have been deceived. Some will find truth eventually as the Spirit will bear truth to them; others will have a love for error, inevitably and will never find the truth. Paul has clearly told us this in II Thes 2 if you recall.

As we will see, not only does this chapter 1 of II Thes further debunk the pre-tribulation heresy, but it also gives much hope to the saint suffering troubles and persecutions from its perpitrators. God does not lie, and we will see how they have taken this chapter also way out of context. Unto the saint, the trouble, though painful, are good. We will now cover the remaining portion of this chapter in detail.


Romans 5
3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

James 1

3Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Galatians 5

6b but faith which worketh by love.





3We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Beginning in verse 4 we see thilpis the Greek word for tribulation. It means an experience that tests one's endurance, patience and faith. The suffering God allows the church to go through is allowed by God to test them of their endurance, patience and faith. Paul glories or speaks proudly of the church of Thessalonica in all the other churches because he is admiring their faith which is demonstrated by their endurance in tribulations and persecutions. That is a precisely what verse 4 says.

Verse 5 tells us that God's allowance of these troubles (persecutions and tribulations) is a manifested token of God's righteous Judgment that shall come against the ungodly bringing this trouble, the persecution to the church. He further tells us that the endurance of this affliction is a manifestation of their salvation. In other words, since they can endure it; it is proof they are saved. In opposite retrospect, had they not endured, they obviously are not part of God's kingdom. Do not misunderstand these statements; what I am not saying is that this endurance of tribulation saves them, but rather it is proof they are saved. The unsaved simply will not endure. This becomes clearer in the following verses.

In verse 6 we see that God will recompense judgment on those that trouble the church. He will recompense tribulation on our persecutor. The timing of the recompense brought against our enemies is crucial to the post-tribulation fact. Further the time frame the church is to endure the tribulation is more proof of the post-tribulation fact as we will see.

In verse seven we see the opposite of what is taught by pre-tribulationists to be true. The rest from persecution does not occur until the Lord Jesus is revealed. Yet they, the pre-tribulationists claim it comes seven years earlier in a secret, hidden, nowhere mentioned in scripture rapture that flies them away. Now reading this by itself does not strike the meaning so strongly, until the word revealed is translated. The word revealed comes from the Greek word apokolypcia. The word, "Apocalypse," is the disclosure and "revelation of Christ when he appears in the fullness of his power". This is very obviously the word being used. It snuffs out the claim to a pre-tribulation return of Christ here. Yet, they claim it is here in II Thes 1. In other word, while the meanings of the words here tells us Jesus is making his disclosure and revelation of power with his apokolypcia here; the pre-tribulationists camps continue to falsely claim this is a secret mysterious coming no one knows about and that none will see. Here we see the same event about to occur in Revelation 11.



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15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


We see verses 8 and 9 telling us the same things also. There is absolutely nothing secret about Jesus coming back with angels in flaming fire, taking vengeance on those that trouble us until the time of his revelation; the vengeance is poured out in flaming fire on those that obeyed not the Gospel of his Word; who also know not God or simply are not his children. The most important thing to notice is the rest from the persecution and troubles does not occur until Jesus is revealed or until his apokolypcia,which occurs at the end of the GT. This debunks the pretribulation rapture entirely.

This is very obviously the wrath of God. God's wrath comes at the end of the GT and not during. The pretribulation camp makes a gross error in calling Satan's wrath which occurs during the tribulation, God's wrath, which occurs at the end of the GT. Satan and his minions persecuting the church does not constitute the wrath of God. God's wrath comes when Jesus is revealed, in flaming fire taking vengeance on the churches enemies, as depicted in verses 8 and 9.

These that trouble us until the end of the GT, shall be punishes with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and the Glory of his power. The Glory of this power is the power of the resurrection. While we receive rest in the resurrection of his likeness, they the wicked shall be punished in the Lake of fire. On that day Christ shall be glorified because we believed everything Paul wrote to us. We are glorified as we are transformed into his likeness on that day. It is that simple. Why do they complicate this so much. THe answer is they refuse to receive the love of the truth. They have pleasure in unrighteousness or they have pleasure in doctrinal errors. Some of these are not of us and time will reveal that.

Last edited by Gideon7620; 11-28-2009 at 08:14 PM..
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Old 11-28-2009, 07:57 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,386,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
You don't see it because you reject what the Bible teaches.


Yea, that's very obvious you don't believe God's Word because it teaches us there will a Rapture.
No.. Left Behind authors teach there is a rapture... the bible never states that some people will not die but go straight to heaven.. Heaven is not for living people... So do you mean you will be raptured into death?
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Old 11-28-2009, 08:00 PM
 
Location: God's Country
21,417 posts, read 29,542,083 times
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
No.. Left Behind authors teach there is a rapture... the bible never states that some people will not die but go straight to heaven.. Heaven is not for living people... So do you mean you will be raptured into death?
Wrong, the Bible does teach there will be a rapture, but you don't believe the Bible. If I am alive at the time of rapture I will be with Jesus, this is what the Bible teaches.
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